.45-70 long range hunting boolit

[marlinman93]

I can consistently make hits with my old BP rifles at 500 yds., even with light crosswinds of 5 mph. BUT I'm shooting at an 18" gong, which is much larger than most kill zones. I have always limited my shots to 250 yds. when hunting with these same guns. I do that because I can go to my local range and use the 250 yd. dinger plate that is 8" diameter, and make consistent hits on it while practicing.
The key isn't distance, it's what distance you can make all hits within a 6"-8" group. And smaller if possible. When I paint the 8" gong, I can shoot 10 shots on it, and find my groups are usually under 4". They open up a little when winds get higher, but still not so much that I fear wounding game.
So whatever distance you choose should be based on the group size you can keep within the kill zone. That doesn't matter what rifle, caliber, or distance you shoot. Kill zone size is always the same, and if you can repeatably land within it you can feel comfortable to take that gun and hunt at the same distance.

[Fisher]

Thread got sour because of a misunderstanding because of different hunting cultures indeed!
I am a South African in deed, I never spent alot of time talking with foreigners about their hunting rules. I take note that you guys sort off get game to hunt on a lottery system and all game is state property, I can understand that a lose cowboy blazing away left right and centre on animals until he gets one downed to put his tag on will be hated, geez I even wil be discusted if that would have be the case.

In SA the game belongs to the land owner, and it is not cheap at all, game being way more expensive than live stock you don’t get hunters “blazing away on animals, because if an animal gets away you have to pay for it anyway, and the rest of the usually hunters gets delayed because a wounded animal is on the lose and needs to be found. Thus you as a hunter cannot take chances as you please, because you will pay for your game that is lost, and because you wasted the precious time of other hunters you will be fround appon, and put yourself in a very bad light. In short, we cannot take chances, we practice allot guys on my level is not you average guy you run into on the street, we are professionals to say the least. Just take into account that to what extend I am going just to get the right boolit to start with, then load development needs to be done, then verious shooting tests for accuracy and repeatability needs to be done, and getting the dope you need for sight settings.
In short I will shoot 500-800 shots with the rifle before taking it on a hunt, in which I feel the rifle will come to it’s own. Every time you aim a firearm, you are risking somthing. Every time in life when you take a calculated risk coupled with good judgment, with a chance off a reward at the end, I believe is a risk worth taking.

We are men, we are made to take chances. If you never attempt the impossible, you will never do anything great. If you being a man are happy with being mediocre, you are a disgrace to mankind.
A man that fails a million times has more honor in him than the scumback that never risks trying anything.

I had enough of this liberal bull dung, I don’t need to explain myself anymore. I am doing the right thing and don’t care how misrable-individuals “Feel” about it.

Those of you who gave thoughtful replies, and shared your knowledge you are honorable men. I take off my hat and salute you.

So lets get back to the point, is there among you men someone who can help me in choosing the right boolit for the job athand?

[NSB]

I can consistently make hits with my old BP rifles at 500 yds., even with light crosswinds of 5 mph. BUT I'm shooting at an 18" gong, which is much larger than most kill zones. I have always limited my shots to 250 yds. when hunting with these same guns. I do that because I can go to my local range and use the 250 yd. dinger plate that is 8" diameter, and make consistent hits on it while practicing.
The key isn't distance, it's what distance you can make all hits within a 6"-8" group. And smaller if possible. When I paint the 8" gong, I can shoot 10 shots on it, and find my groups are usually under 4". They open up a little when winds get higher, but still not so much that I fear wounding game.
So whatever distance you choose should be based on the group size you can keep within the kill zone. That doesn't matter what rifle, caliber, or distance you shoot. Kill zone size is always the same, and if you can repeatably land within it you can feel comfortable to take that gun and hunt at the same distance.

Gongs don't move while you're aiming at them. You also know the exact distance when shooting at them, and you probably are using a pretty solid rest. The problem between shooting and hunting is that the gong never changes, it doesn't take a step when you're not expecting it, and there shouldn't be any adrenaline pumping while you're trying to get it done. Also, you keeping your ten shot groups under four inches at 250 yards is nothing short of spectacular. I'm not saying you aren't doing it, but I doubt that one person out of a thousand could ever expect to do that at a target let alone a game animal. I do agree with you that for hunting purposes that 250 yards is about the limit of certainty under the best possible conditions. Have game animals been taken further? I'm sure many of them have, but......the number of poorly hit and wounded goes up exponentially beyond that distance. One time a few years ago I was at a big shoot (three gun shoot) and a side event was set up where a shooter could take three shots for a buck with a 45-70 at an 18x18 inch gong at a measured 250 yards off-hand. The gun was a Sharps and it had a vernier sight and globe front. I hit a 9x10 and amazed even myself that day. However, I'd be very hesitant to take a shot at a deer at that distance without using a range finder, a better rest, and hoping the animal didn't decide to take another step sideways to get that next good looking piece of clover. Remember the hang time of that bullet at that distance.....it can become critical.

[rfd]

... Remember the hang time of that bullet at that distance.....it can become critical.

that alone is a reason not to "long range" hunt with 19th century style cartridges and rifles that literally lob bullets.

[NSB]

that alone is a reason not to "long range" hunt with 19th century style cartridges and rifles that literally lob bullets.

Totally agree.

[Hamish]

I have always been a Bowhunter first and a gun Hunter second, and as such, a video I saw in the '80's made a profound impact on me. In two tenths of a second, a whitetail can drop a full body height. I've seen video of a deer completely swapping direction at the sound of the arrow release before the arrow arrived, inside of 40 yards.

HOW LONG IS THE TRAVEL TIME FROM BARREL TO TARGET?

I could care less how many people have successfully killed animals at extended ranges, being a responsible Hunter means getting as close as you can before pressing the trigger. If that's 400 yards and you can keep your shots inside a six inch circle when your hearts pounding and your chest is heaving, you'll catch no flak from me.


Just because you can doesn't mean you should. If you're determined to do it, at least step up to the .45-120,,,,,,,

[EDG]

You are not proving a anything by playing long range artillery with living animals.
Who owns the animal makes no difference.
So you mean to tell us that if you wound a million animals you are superior because you tried and failed a million times?
Using the "we are men who take risks" card does not reflect well on your values and your reaction is not a surprise either. Sorry but if you know so much than us why are you asking for help?

Thread got sour because of a misunderstanding because of different hunting cultures indeed!
I am a South African in deed, I never spent alot of time talking with foreigners about their hunting rules. I take note that you guys sort off get game to hunt on a lottery system and all game is state property, I can understand that a lose cowboy blazing away left right and centre on animals until he gets one downed to put his tag on will be hated, geez I even wil be discusted if that would have be the case.

In SA the game belongs to the land owner, and it is not cheap at all, game being way more expensive than live stock you don’t get hunters “blazing away on animals, because if an animal gets away you have to pay for it anyway, and the rest of the usually hunters gets delayed because a wounded animal is on the lose and needs to be found. Thus you as a hunter cannot take chances as you please, because you will pay for your game that is lost, and because you wasted the precious time of other hunters you will be fround appon, and put yourself in a very bad light. In short, we cannot take chances, we practice allot guys on my level is not you average guy you run into on the street, we are professionals to say the least. Just take into account that to what extend I am going just to get the right boolit to start with, then load development needs to be done, then verious shooting tests for accuracy and repeatability needs to be done, and getting the dope you need for sight settings.
In short I will shoot 500-800 shots with the rifle before taking it on a hunt, in which I feel the rifle will come to it’s own. Every time you aim a firearm, you are risking somthing. Every time in life when you take a calculated risk coupled with good judgment, with a chance off a reward at the end, I believe is a risk worth taking.

We are men, we are made to take chances. If you never attempt the impossible, you will never do anything great. If you being a man are happy with being mediocre, you are a disgrace to mankind.
A man that fails a million times has more honor in him than the scumback that never risks trying anything.

I had enough of this liberal bull dung, I don’t need to explain myself anymore. I am doing the right thing and don’t care how misrable-individuals “Feel” about it.

Those of you who gave thoughtful replies, and shared your knowledge you are honorable men. I take off my hat and salute you.

So lets get back to the point, is there among you men someone who can help me in choosing the right boolit for the job athand?

[rfd]

.... In short I will shoot 500-800 shots with the rifle before taking it on a hunt, in which I feel the rifle will come to it’s own. Every time you aim a firearm, you are risking somthing. Every time in life when you take a calculated risk coupled with good judgment, with a chance off a reward at the end, I believe is a risk worth taking.

let's be logical and apply common gun, cartridge and ballistics. taking even a 1000 shots worth of practice and becoming reasonably proficient at, say, 400 yards with a .45-70 will, at world class .45-70 shooting, at very best mean 2 moa at that distance which translates to hitting somewhere within 8" of your point of aim which translates to a single hit somewhere within a 16" radius. this does not take into account animal or air movement, nor a 1 second or much more bullet travel time, nor the incredible trajectory of 500 to 560 grain bullets fired out of a .45-70, even if paper patched and sitting on top of 83 grains of premium black powder. those aren't particularly good odds of a good killing hit - would not you agree?

We are men, we are made to take chances. If you never attempt the impossible, you will never do anything great. If you being a man are happy with being mediocre, you are a disgrace to mankind. A man that fails a million times has more honor in him than the scumback that never risks trying anything.

if you value the honor of the animals you hunt, would you not agree that failing by wounding is unethical?

... So lets get back to the point, is there among you men someone who can help me in choosing the right boolit for the job athand?

i cast .45 bullets for sharps and rollers that have the capability of 1 moa accuracy at a paper target face, under pristine shooting conditions, with the rifle machine rest, lead sledded. the problem arises when i'm behind the trigger and the target is a moving object. in such cases, when i miss at long ranges of 300 yards or more, the soft alloy bullets have significantly mushroomed from hitting earth, wood, or rocks. i have no doubt that most any proper weight alloy bullet, as in greased or paper patched, will be more than capable of taking down any game in north america - dunno about africa, but hereabouts i'm talking elk, moose, big bear, etc.

please consider the above whilst you ponder an attempt at long distance hunting with 19th century cartridges. thank you.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

[EVR]

I'll just add that I travelled in '88 and lived in RSA in '89. All round the country {put 5000+ km on a rented Honda Ballad in '88, covered the whole country and all the provinsies, dry dongas and all! LOL}. Have hunted there as well.

Sad to see what's going on now with all the upheaval.

The long range thing wasn't even thought about back when I was there and wouldn't even crossed any of our minds I don't think, as the whole experience of the hunt was foot work and stalking. I'm still a life member of the KwaZulu/Natal Hunters and Game Conservation Association.

I haven't been back in many years, but one thing that really stand out in looking at modern pix compared to back then. Nobody was fat in those days. I suppose National Service and all that.

[Ozark mike]

I have always been a Bowhunter first and a gun Hunter second, and as such, a video I saw in the '80's made a profound impact on me. In two tenths of a second, a whitetail can drop a full body height. I've seen video of a deer completely swapping direction at the sound of the arrow release before the arrow arrived, inside of 40 yards.

HOW LONG IS THE TRAVEL TIME FROM BARREL TO TARGET?

I could care less how many people have successfully killed animals at extended ranges, being a responsible Hunter means getting as close as you can before pressing the trigger. If that's 400 yards and you can keep your shots inside a six inch circle when your hearts pounding and your chest is heaving, you'll catch no flak from me.


Just because you can doesn't mean you should. If you're determined to do it, at least step up to the .45-120,,,,,,,

All the modern guns chambered in whether it be 4570 or the longer cartridges will be rated at the same pressures with 45 70 being just a little more common example Ruger no1. I know he is talking about bp just thought I would throw that out there

[marlinman93]

Gongs don't move while you're aiming at them. You also know the exact distance when shooting at them, and you probably are using a pretty solid rest.
However, I'd be very hesitant to take a shot at a deer at that distance without using a range finder, a better rest, and hoping the animal didn't decide to take another step sideways to get that next good looking piece of clover. Remember the hang time of that bullet at that distance.....it can become critical.

Gongs don't move, but I've taken enough deer and elk with 1800's single shot rifles at 250 yds. or less to know that unless the game took a jump, a single step will not end up in a miss or bad shot. And as for a solid rest? I don't shoot gongs off the bench, I shoot them off my cross sticks, or seated with my elbows resting on my knees. Same way I shoot game.
And a range finder might be a worthwhile addition, if I was hunting beyond 250 yds. But if a hunter can't judge distances of 250 yds. or less, they shouldn't be hunting with older slower calibers. I've ranged game after I estimated the distance and dropped the animal, and rarely found my initial estimate off enough that it could have created a low or high hit. I don't range them before the shot simply due to time restraints. When I see an animal I want to take, I am concentrating on getting into shooting position, and estimating distance. I don't want to take time to retrieve a range finder from my pack, and have the game walk off. If I'm unsure of the distance, it's probably too far for me to take a shot. That's why I limit my shots to 250 yds. or less. And since we need to know how much "hang time" that bullet has. It takes about .5 second for bullet traveling 1350 fps to reach the target at 250 yds.

[NSB]

Gongs don't move, but I've taken enough deer and elk with 1800's single shot rifles at 250 yds. or less to know that unless the game took a jump, a single step will not end up in a miss or bad shot. And as for a solid rest? I don't shoot gongs off the bench, I shoot them off my cross sticks, or seated with my elbows resting on my knees. Same way I shoot game.
And a range finder might be a worthwhile addition, if I was hunting beyond 250 yds. But if a hunter can't judge distances of 250 yds. or less, they shouldn't be hunting with older slower calibers. I've ranged game after I estimated the distance and dropped the animal, and rarely found my initial estimate off enough that it could have created a low or high hit. I don't range them before the shot simply due to time restraints. When I see an animal I want to take, I am concentrating on getting into shooting position, and estimating distance. I don't want to take time to retrieve a range finder from my pack, and have the game walk off. If I'm unsure of the distance, it's probably too far for me to take a shot. That's why I limit my shots to 250 yds. or less. And since we need to know how much "hang time" that bullet has. It takes about .5 second for bullet traveling 1350 fps to reach the target at 250 yds.

A deer can move quite a bit in half a second. Enough to make a bad shot. I'm not going to get into an on line argument over this. You're as free as the OP to do what ever you please. I've seen way too many "experts" in my time to get into an discussion/argument with them and doing it on line is a waste of time. Fortunately, most of the responses on here have been more favorable. As far as how fast deer can react, ask any bow hunter how many deer they've shot at that "jumped" the arrow. FWIW, a deer moving at a leisurely five miles an hour can move over seven feet in half a second. The math isn't difficult. On top of that, you may not be as good at judging yardage as you think you are. I've been involved in training classes where everyone had to estimate yardage and most were surprised at how poorly they were at doing it. With the bullet drop of the 45-70 bullet at that distance it can be off several inches that way also. I've been doing this a lot of years and I KNOW what happens. There are simply too many "hunters" out there who are reckless in their approach to taking shots at game animals. Sorry.

[rfd]

anyone who's ever hunted texas whitetails will realize how unnaturally spooky wired they are. as a longbow hunter, you learn to aim at the ground, right under their lungs, because else they'll duck the string that was plucked 15 yards away and yer shaft will sail o'er their backs.

[marlinman93]

Whistling or making any noise to stop game might work well at closer ranges. But if the game is at longer distances it wont work quite as well.

[marlinman93]

A deer can move quite a bit in half a second. Enough to make a bad shot. I'm not going to get into an on line argument over this. You're as free as the OP to do what ever you please. I've seen way too many "experts" in my time to get into an discussion/argument with them and doing it on line is a waste of time. Fortunately, most of the responses on here have been more favorable. As far as how fast deer can react, ask any bow hunter how many deer they've shot at that "jumped" the arrow. FWIW, a deer moving at a leisurely five miles an hour can move over seven feet in half a second. The math isn't difficult. On top of that, you may not be as good at judging yardage as you think you are. I've been involved in training classes where everyone had to estimate yardage and most were surprised at how poorly they were at doing it. With the bullet drop of the 45-70 bullet at that distance it can be off several inches that way also. I've been doing this a lot of years and I KNOW what happens. There are simply too many "hunters" out there who are reckless in their approach to taking shots at game animals. Sorry.

I never claimed to be an "expert", so I can only speak from personal experience. Comparing a deer jumping a shot when bow hunting is not the same as any rifle hunting, even with low velocity BP cartridges. Deer are jumping at the sound of the release with bow hunters. Plus the ranges are close enough with archery that deer often detect the slightest movement and jump at that also.
I wont argue with you either, as you've got your own opinions, and I have no idea what they're based on? But I've hunted for over 50 years, and the last 15 or more have been strictly with my 1800's single shot rifles. I've taken a lot of game in those years, and never wounded one, or made a bad shot on one.
Everyone can make their own decision based on their skills, and their equipment. I do believe that certain long shots are unethical, but I don't believe that 250 yds. is unethical for my hunting. Purely based on my own results.

[Larry Gibson]

Fisher

Since you're hunting with the rifle/cartridge in question and considering smokeless powder loads I would suggest the use of a GC'd bullet. You will get better accuracy at the higher end velocity you've mentioned. I've done a bit of long range shooting with the 45-70 using smokeless loads under a 400 gr GC'd bullet and under a 500 gr GC'd bullet. Both were driven over 1600 fps with IMR4895 and both were certainly capable of, to me, ethical 500 yard shots on larger game such as elk. My preference would be the 500 gr Lee C457-500-FN as it is quite accurate and holds up well at long range. I also push that bullet much faster as my rifle is a Mauser (Siamese) bolt action. Given accurate range finders the trajectory and TOF to 500 yards are not as bad as some would have you believe.

[Ozark mike]

That's my main boolit anymore. I used the 457 405f for a while but it's bigger brother is a real thumper

[Good Cheer]

Thread got sour because of a misunderstanding because of different hunting cultures indeed!
I am a South African in deed, I never spent alot of time talking with foreigners about their hunting rules. I take note that you guys sort off get game to hunt on a lottery system and all game is state property, I can understand that a lose cowboy blazing away left right and centre on animals until he gets one downed to put his tag on will be hated, geez I even wil be discusted if that would have be the case.

In SA the game belongs to the land owner, and it is not cheap at all, game being way more expensive than live stock you don’t get hunters “blazing away on animals, because if an animal gets away you have to pay for it anyway, and the rest of the usually hunters gets delayed because a wounded animal is on the lose and needs to be found. Thus you as a hunter cannot take chances as you please, because you will pay for your game that is lost, and because you wasted the precious time of other hunters you will be fround appon, and put yourself in a very bad light. In short, we cannot take chances, we practice allot guys on my level is not you average guy you run into on the street, we are professionals to say the least. Just take into account that to what extend I am going just to get the right boolit to start with, then load development needs to be done, then verious shooting tests for accuracy and repeatability needs to be done, and getting the dope you need for sight settings.
In short I will shoot 500-800 shots with the rifle before taking it on a hunt, in which I feel the rifle will come to it’s own. Every time you aim a firearm, you are risking somthing. Every time in life when you take a calculated risk coupled with good judgment, with a chance off a reward at the end, I believe is a risk worth taking.

We are men, we are made to take chances. If you never attempt the impossible, you will never do anything great. If you being a man are happy with being mediocre, you are a disgrace to mankind.
A man that fails a million times has more honor in him than the scumback that never risks trying anything.

I had enough of this liberal bull dung, I don’t need to explain myself anymore. I am doing the right thing and don’t care how misrable-individuals “Feel” about it.

Those of you who gave thoughtful replies, and shared your knowledge you are honorable men. I take off my hat and salute you.

So lets get back to the point, is there among you men someone who can help me in choosing the right boolit for the job athand?

Oh my what a hilarious thread.

Sir, if you want to stretch out the 45-70 then the best way to do it is a heavy spire point totally soft lead paper patched bullet.
My brother developed his own techniques for extremely accurate high powered smokeless loads with straight lead many years ago after reading the works of Paul Matthews. His favorite is 500 grains at 1800FPS. I don't know when the shaken baby syndrome will get him but he just turned 66 and is still going strong.

[waksupi]

Apparently ethics isn't part of your hunting considerations. Bragging seems to be the end goal. In good conscience I couldn't add anything to this post, and I've been shooting several 45-70s for a long time. Ever think of just shooting at paper or steel at those distances? FWIW, I've been a very successful long range shooter with both rifles and handguns for many, many years. I just draw the line on using animals to boost my ego.

Agreed.

[waksupi]

Oh my what a hilarious thread.

Sir, if you want to stretch out the 45-70 then the best way to do it is a heavy spire point totally soft lead paper patched bullet.
My brother developed his own techniques for extremely accurate high powered smokeless loads with straight lead many years ago after reading the works of Paul Matthews. His favorite is 500 grains at 1800FPS. I don't know when the shaken baby syndrome will get him but he just turned 66 and is still going strong.

Problem with this one is, you have no meplate. It won't leave much of a wound channel.