Unburned Powder

[The Old Salt]

First time I ever had this happen. Today I was shooting some 45 LC loads through my Taurus Judge, 2 1/2" 410 Mod.
Load was 230g homecast LRN over 15.0g IMR4227.
IVs for 8 shots ran from a low of 300 fps to a high of 425 fps, ave iv was 378 fps.
Every fired case had 20% 0r more unburned powder still in the case when the it was extracted.

So ... one of you pistol guys tell me what happened today.

For compairison I fired some American Aegle, factory 250g cawboy loads chrony was 850 to 900fps as box data suggested it should be.

Also fired some Unique loadings. 8.2g Unique, same bullet. (Cowboy loading is 8.5g)
Unique does not fill the case. There was 1/4" or more of case capacity left empty. So I used a stack of cardboard over powder wads to fill the empty space.
IVs were 380-415 fps w ave iv of 385 fps. Very mild recoil, I would like to have IVs in the 700 to 800 fps range. My first thought is to push up to 8.5g then 9.0g (continuing to fill the empty space with wad) to see what happens.

Thx in advance fofr your comments.

[bmortell]

it probably don't have long enough bearing surface to seal between the case mouth and where the throat starts so it vents a lot of gas as soon as it departs from the case and then re seals in the throat. im assuming thats what the chambers are like. and you don't need to/shouldn't fill empty case space in this kind of situation unique don't care.

[bmortell]

and also I wouldn't shoot anymore of those your at high risk of one stopping in the barrel and it would be easy to shoot again since your not expecting much noise and recoil anyway. I cant think of any reason besides what I said for it happening, but I cant find what chamber dimension looks like so I cant say any particular advice

[Ozark mike]

What i believe happens is pressure creates heat. heat helps to burn all the individual grains of powder that doesn't stay in the flame front long enough to catch fire. Same thing happens in my bfr 45-70 uses a slow burning rifle powder like h322 the powder is still burning long after the bullet exits the bbl. But in my 1895 all it burns out. Now I load it to higher pressures even though more powder is there to start I get fewer leftovers in the bbl

[bmortell]

I could understand 4227 not burning well in a gun that size in non magnum caliber, but if unique builds pessure equally bad and only gives 380 fps there's something physically wrong not letting it build pressure you definitely don't need a rifle barrel for unique

[BHill]

What diameter are your home cast bullets? If .452 then you never got a seal and gas is going by the bullet and never building pressure to have an efficient burn.

[onelight]

Were your cases really smoked ? The judge has such a large chamber for 45 colt it might be having a problem reaching the pressure it needs to burn completely you may be better off with a faster powder.
A heavy crimp might help and you don’t need the wads with Unique.

[The Old Salt]

Lets see if I can answer some of these concerns.
1. Taurus judge chambered for 2 1/2" 410's has a cylinder that measures 2 9/16" long. This leaves 0.704" of cylinder that is 0.460" dia to travel through so there is plenty of room and time to loose presure. Thats why I fired the factory American Eagle rds (225g, Box IV 860 fps) for compairison and they preformed OK. They chroned between 795-850 fps. 3" barrel and long cylinder explains the lower IVs. Will have to pull one of them apart and mike the bullet dia.
2. When testing with my Judge I usually only load 1 at a time so I am opening the cylinder after each shot to look at the case. Provides an opportunity to Ck the bore to prevent shooting with 1 stuck in the barrel. Tks for the concern. Re-inforcing safe practice is always good.
3. If Unique doesn't care about empty space in the case, Thats good to know. But is it sensitive to the long cylinder allowing it to loose presure. I read one post where the individual was loading 10.0g Unique and they were shooting OK. Thought comes to mind, maybe the higher loading was compensating for the pressure loss in the long & large cylinder. Just a thought.
4. 45 LC COL is 1.585". my 45 cast bullets vary. These are .452". A little small but with 6.0g Unique they do 850-900 pfs out of my Ruger SR1911. I will get more focused on my casting results.
5. Yes on the heavier crimp. Need to get a 45 LC crimp die or investigate using my 45 ACP crimp die. Wil ck cases for heavy smoke. Thx on that one.

[winelover]

I don't own a Judge but a friend does. Even though he is an advanced handloader, he never shot anything out of his, except factory shotshells for snake control.

One day he brought it over while I was shooting my 45 LC BH. IIRC, the load was MP's 270 SAA HP's (both conic and penta points) over 8.0 grains of Unique. He mentioned that he also has the mould but never tried bullets in the Judge. Well, I said we'll remedy that situation. Loaded up a couple of cylinders full and tried them out. Gun handle them just fine. Recoil was stiff but not excessive. No unburnt powder, observed. The conics grouped a little better than the pentas.........we were shooting @ 10 yards. IMO, the Judge is too large for CC but would make a decent house gun..... first shot loaded with shot shell, followed by real bullets.

Winelover

[onelight]

Unique should be a good choice. Do the bullets you are loading have a good crimp groove?
I have not loaded for a judge hopefully someone who has will come along today. Or look around on a Taurus forum with a reloading section for specific judge info , but check any information you find against a couple of loading manuals.
Your gun may be a good candidate for a fairly soft hollow base bullet but I would certainly work up slowly and do not expect the same accuracy and velocity you would from a 45 colt revolver chamber.

[Dan Cash]

What the heck is an IV? I presume you mean muzzle velocity. Please use standard nomenclature.

[Froogal]

I use 8.5 grains of Unique under a 200 grain LRNFP .45 Colt. I shoot these from a Uberti Cattleman with 7 1/2" barrel, a Cimmaron with 5 1/2" barrel, and also from a Rossi R92. Never had a problem with unburned powder.

[onelight]

I use 8.5 grains of Unique under a 200 grain LRNFP .45 Colt. I shoot these from a Uberti Cattleman with 7 1/2" barrel, a Cimmaron with 5 1/2" barrel, and also from a Rossi R92. Never had a problem with unburned powder.

My guess with a 21/2” chamber the bullet is completely out of the case before it enters the throat (if they have a throat) so you would loose pressure that affects powder burn because it is leaking around the bullet while still in the cylinder.
This is my guess not a fact. this is why I think a heavy crimp fast burning powder or hollow base bullet might help.

[Outpost75]

IV = Instrumental Velocity. The term is correct.

4227 is too slow for non-magnum handgun applications, which explains the erratic ballistics.

As others have said, Unique would be OK, but in the calibers and short barrels 231, Bullseye or TiteGroup are better.

Lacking specific Bullseye data use 75% of the starting Unique charge weight in Bullseye.

[lar45]

I agree with several of the posts above in that you need a much faster powder, and a good crimp.
I have a Judge that takes the 2 1/2" shells with a 3" barrel. I measured the throats and they are .462". This is much larger than your bullets are. So you will need a fast burning powder to get your bullet moving as fast as possible before it enters the extra wide throats. The bullet will have about a 1" jump in free space before it hits the forcing cone of the barrel. Hopefully you will still have powder burning and building pressure to accelerate the bullet through the barrel.

Your factory ammo gave much higher velocity probably because they used a fast burning powder.

I went to Hodgdon.com and looked up load data for the 45 Colt with a 230LRN bullet. It looked like one of the faster powders listed was 700X. They had loads listed from 4.7gns at 771fps to 6.0gns at 904fps.
I didn't have any 230 LRN cast, but did have some powder coated 235s already done and sized to .451" for my 45acp.
I loaded 5 rounds each of 5.0gns, 5.5gns and 6.0gns, to a length of 1.563".
It's raining quite abit here, so I couldn't shoot and chrono them today. If tomorrow is clear, I'll shoot them and report the results.

One last thing, please don't add wads to take up the extra air space in your loads. It will essentially give you a smaller internal capacity and can drive your pressures up with what would otherwise be a safe powder charge.

[The Old Salt]

First, thx to all for joining in the discussion. What a frustrating morning. Logged into CB from my phone. Read everyones comments. Drafted a reply. Tried to post. Had to refresh page and log in. In the process my draft comments were erased. �� so here we go again.

I.V. = Initial Velocity. As a USN Fire Control Tech I calculated IV many many times and cranked it into my Destroyers Mk 1A Fire Control Computer. It was calculated using: bore ware, powder/projectile temps, and Wet Bulb readings. It made a ballistic correction to the computers gun-order results. MV = IV

Unburned Powder: This only happened with 4227. I have been schooled of the pitfals of using 4227 in low power loads. I had No Unburned Powder issues with any Unique loads.

Crimp: I do need a heavier crimp. I will try to use my 45 acp factory crimp die, but may have to get a 45 LC crimp die.

Powder Loading: I was using 8.2g Unique and a light crimp. I will
Up the load to 8.5g and a heavy crimp.

Bullet: The 230g LRN bullets are a tun le lube design, have a short side wall and may not crimp well with a 1.585 col. That puts the top lube groove just at or below the case top. May have to mold up some 252g bullets.

Range Day: I will put all this to use for the next range day and report back results.

Thx again to all.

[lar45]

It quit raining, so I setup the chronograph and shot my 700X loads. CCI 300 primers and starline cases.
5.0gns - 626fps SD:15.0 - sooty cases
5.5gns - 670fps SD:6.85 - a little less sooty
6.0gns - 711fps SD:16.82 - slightly sooty, so still not building enough pressure to seal the case mouth.

6.0gns was the top load listed by Hodgdon for a 230LRN. They have it listed at 904fps from a 7.25"barrel.

[Froogal]

My guess with a 21/2” chamber the bullet is completely out of the case before it enters the throat (if they have a throat) so you would loose pressure that affects powder burn because it is leaking around the bullet while still in the cylinder.
This is my guess not a fact. this is why I think a heavy crimp fast burning powder or hollow base bullet might help.

You are on to something here. I tried loading some .357s with a black powder substitute and firing them in a Ruger SP101 snubnose. Got off two shots before the cylinder jammed up and wouldn't turn. I found a LOT of unburned powder and residue had escaped between the cylinder and the forcing cone. I won't try that again, but the same load worked beautifully in a Ruger Vaquero with 5 1/2" barrel.

[onelight]

Those results look much better.

[The Old Salt]

LAR45 mike the back end of your chambers to see how much clearance there is between your case and the cylinder walls. It may take a larger powder load to get your case to seal up because Taurus over bores them oversize or because of the long (0.700") free bore.