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Thread: Single stage press comparison test

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    The point is who are you kidding if you brag about your press when any old press will do the job?
    You may feel good expressing an opinion even though you have only used one press all your life. But feeling good about your press is not an objective measurement. To be objective means measuring and comparing.
    You can rationalize all you want but you have not provided objective evidence (data) that proves your point. You have only expressed an opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Not sure how you derive that number but, accepting you may be correct in general, I wonder ... how many guys who are happy reloaders would you guess will ever assemble that many rounds in their life. The point being, a LOT of reloaders will live quite well with a cheap cast aluminum.

    My observation is that a few of us will ever punch out 50K rounds and for them a "cheap press" is entirely sufficent to last a lifetime. For the vast majority of reloaders, spending more for any tool than is needed for the job isn't wisdom, it's a waste. Note that "cheap alum" alloy presses are sold by RCBS, Hornady, Dillon and Lee; the users I know of are happy with all of them.

    For those of us who eventually reload vast numbers, how we started doesn't really matter in the long run. I mean, all of the highly active loaders I've ever known have much more than one press on their bench so whatever press they started with seems a moot point. IMHO. ???
    EDG

  2. #42
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    The measurement that counts is does a tool do what I need it to do.
    I have seen several posts from folks that say they have used aluminum presses for decades with no problems I think they are telling the truth.

  3. #43
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    Sure but that does not mean much because you have not quantified what the press is doing. If you do not quantify a characteristic how can you measure it?

    Sure people tell the truth but the truth is their requirements are not known.
    Any press might load 38 Special.
    Any press might load 1000 rounds.
    Not every press can load 50,000 round of 50 BMG.

    The whole point of the original article was to provide data that permitted direct comparison of the presses. To say a press is good enough is not very useful when shopping for the best deal for your money.
    And again decades means nothing if the press was used very little in 40 years.




    Quote Originally Posted by onelight View Post
    The measurement that counts is does a tool do what I need it to do.
    I have seen several posts from folks that say they have used aluminum presses for decades with no problems I think they are telling the truth.
    Last edited by EDG; 04-19-2019 at 05:35 PM.
    EDG

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    The point is who are you kidding if you brag about your press when any old press will do the job?
    Not sure if you are speaking hypothetically or to me. I believe ALL of our reloading tool makers (any old press?) make good gear. Not all of it is aimed at the most critical of us nor should it be. Taking an elitist position and looking down on presses that are obviously plenty "good enough" for a very large percentage of us is pointless.

    You may feel good expressing an opinion even though you have only used one press all your life. But feeling good about your press is not an objective measurement. To be objective means measuring and comparing.
    Being objective about what is good enough for different levels of reloading is what we're discussing. I'm sure you know that casual shooters reloading for their hand guns and deer rifles can have a lot of fun and wouldn't gain a thing - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - by meeting your more "objective" standards. You know it so why be so condescending about what's barely "good enough" for others for because they don't want or need what you like?

    You can rationalize all you want but you have not provided objective evidence (data) that proves your point. You have only expressed an opinion.
    You are quite correct ... but, as Mr. Onelight (#42) observes, my point IS an objective opinion that requires logic, not arcane measurements.

    I've lived with the idea that the only measurement that really matters is the groups on target, not the press.

    Assuming the same care in assembly, have you actually found measurably better accuracy on target with your more precise press; I mean how much smaller are the average groups with ammo from your best press than your second best? Or even from your third best? And, if your best is really better, would you objectively tell us in inches how much better your best press does its job?
    Last edited by 1hole; 04-20-2019 at 10:08 AM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Note that "cheap alum" alloy presses are sold by RCBS, Hornady, Dillon and Lee; the users I know of are happy with all of them.
    There are cheap aluminum presses and there are good ones. Being made of an aluminum alloy alone doesn't define the quality of a press. You lumped Dillon and Lee in the same sentence. I'm calling that a party foul!
    Sometimes life taps you on the shoulder and reminds you it's a one way street. Jim Morris

  6. #46
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    Okay, okay, I knew it would probably come so ... I'll consider my rusty chain to be well pulled.

    BUT, the alloy Lee uses isn't the same stuff as the others use.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
    Feelings? Really?

    You can't make 99.99% believe this,
    1. Trying to determine force with the human nervous system is the most unreliable things you can do.
    Humans simply aren't wired to determine force accurately.

    Prove it to yourself, put exactly 5 or 10 pounds of pressure on a scale, blindfolded...
    See how close you get.

    2. Hold exactly 5 or 10 pounds of pressure on a scale for 30 seconds and see how good you are...
    That scale is going to jump up & down like a little girl that gets a kitten, you have no chance!

    The biggie of 'Feel' is ergonomics.
    Again, 99.99% won't have a bench at the optimum height, or have a chair/stool at the right height.

    I'm 'Disabled', I have a shoulder, neck & back that's screwed up...
    I took the class on ergonomics & kinesiology, and went home to rebuild my workbenches.

    I got a solid, comfortable chair with back & thigh support (no wobbles or leaning!),
    And I put the presses in a position where I could pull/push the handles within comfortable range of motion,
    Then built a bench design that didn't wobble, and adjusted the top height so the handle was in the normal, comfortable range of motion.

    Shoulder, neck & back problems went away, AND the machine *Seemed* to run smoother, much less effort required...
    And I was back doing one of my favorite things without pain & suffering.

    ----------

    As for mechanical movement, there is a reason humans invented all sorts of measuring devices,
    Because we suck at determining small movements.
    It's a predator/pray thing...
    I dont think you read my whole post about the feel of a press. I said the handle location of my Rockchucker is probably the determining factor for how it FEELS. And I agree wholeheartedly that ergonomics and press height contribute more than we all realize to perceived force needed.

  8. #48
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    Ergonomics is a big part of any equipment used. Handles that fit the hand controls and adjustment in easy reach. A lot of thought and testing go into this when working up a new item. A Having to reach stretch for the machine is tiring and becomes uncomfortable. An example is a coax or Summit press on a bench that's comfortable to use then mount a rock chucker lee or other press with the lower handle mount and it may become an issue due to the difference in handle location. Another is how colors affect this. One reason a lot of machine equipment is grey is its easy on the eyes to look at all day.

    A machine you sit in front of for hours working little things can make a big difference

  9. #49
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    I would bet that Lee uses exactly the same aluminum alloy that is the industry standard for high strength die castings.
    It is A380 and it is about all that anyone uses and has been since the first time I used it about 1980.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Okay, okay, I knew it would probably come so ... I'll consider my rusty chain to be well pulled.

    BUT, the alloy Lee uses isn't the same stuff as the others use.
    EDG

  10. #50
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    Surprising how much difference in applied force .........but its not a factor for me,if I wanted a feather touch operation,I would get a press with a ball bushing on the ram and needle rollers in every bearing...............or maybe I would just install a small hydraulic cylinder,and need no manual effort at all.

  11. #51
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    With most control valves for hydraulic cylinders there is no feed back to the operator to judge the force applied. So you have no idea when you are jamming a case into the die that has insufficient case lube.
    Instead of stopping and pulling the case out for more lube you will just wind up with a stuck case that will pull off the rim. If the case lubing process is well controlled then you might be able to use hydraulic pressure without issue. I have seen some operators use a 650 Dillion with spray case lube and 2 FL .223 dies.
    The first FL die is set shallow like a partial sizing operation. The second die is set full depth to set the shoulder to give proper head space. Those setups will FL size a large pile of cases in just a minute or 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Surprising how much difference in applied force .........but its not a factor for me,if I wanted a feather touch operation,I would get a press with a ball bushing on the ram and needle rollers in every bearing...............or maybe I would just install a small hydraulic cylinder,and need no manual effort at all.
    EDG

  12. #52
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    Subjective refers to personal perspectives, feelings, or opinions entering the decision making process. Objective refers to the elimination of subjective perspectives and a process that is purely based on hard facts.

    You are arguing in circles. If the presses are good enough just because you say so - prove it. You cannot prove it without data. Most people's opinions are worth what they cost.

    Your way of arguing for judgment means we or they could skip any kind of competition, game or race because in your opinion and judgement you know whose team or car is good enough. But what is good enough?
    There is not much more worthless opinions that a bunch of old wind bags sitting around a hot stove expounding on things they have never done. Just like the pope giving an opinion on sex....
    So what if some people cannot and don't care enough to discriminate so they can chose one over the other. Is that how you think you would buy everything.
    Many people cannot tell one car from another and persist buying mediocre junk.
    Some people spend weeks analyzing different cars because it is important to them to get the best deal for their money. If you don't care that is fine but you cannot speak for those that do care.
    Some shooters can make good choices based on data and for those that can it is important.
    To some extent you have to remember one of the main concepts of management.
    You cannot manage people, money, businesses or processes unless you can measure them. To measure them means you need data.

    If you choose to live the mediocre life then you have little need to tell the big number from the little number. You will not need to make any decision - you can just buy the first thing on the web page or first thing you see on the shelf. But remember most people do have preferences and choices. I suspect you do too. Does that mean you are also an elitist and will not admit it?

    You asked the question about what is the impact on accuracy based on the accuracy of the press manufacturing. jajajaja Well the answer is YOU DON'T KNOW and I don't know because neither one of us have ran exhausting tests and collected data on it. However you are assuming it makes a difference and you cannot prove that it makes any difference or NOT without any data. That is why you asked a question that you cannot answer. The answer can be partially determined by analysis. That is the slop between the case heads and most shell holders is greater than the manufactured misalignment of the press. Therefore the cases can move into alignment without interference from the shell holder lips. But guess what that little bit of analysis took data - yeah more numbers. Sure there are hand loaders that don't really care but some really do. And you cannot speak for every one.
    The real data needed is the force generated by the rams based on a standard input force to judge the mechanical advantage and the presses need life cycle testing. There again some of your bubba loaders will not know enough to care.
    Some will want the best mechanical advantage and longest lived press for the money. Don't you?






    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Not sure if you are speaking hypothetically or to me. I believe ALL of our reloading tool makers (any old press?) make good gear. Not all of it is aimed at the most critical of us nor should it be. Taking an elitist position and looking down on presses that are obviously plenty "good enough" for a very large percentage of us is pointless.



    Being objective about what is good enough for different levels of reloading is what we're discussing. I'm sure you know that casual shooters reloading for their hand guns and deer rifles can have a lot of fun and wouldn't gain a thing - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - by meeting your more "objective" standards. You know it so why be so condescending about what's barely "good enough" for others for because they don't want or need what you like?



    You are quite correct ... but, as Mr. Onelight (#42) observes, my point IS an objective opinion that requires logic, not arcane measurements.

    I've lived with the idea that the only measurement that really matters is the groups on target, not the press.

    Assuming the same care in assembly, have you actually found measurably better accuracy on target with your more precise press; I mean how much smaller are the average groups with ammo from your best press than your second best? Or even from your third best? And, if your best is really better, would you objectively tell us in inches how much better your best press does its job?
    Last edited by EDG; 04-23-2019 at 07:14 AM.
    EDG

  13. #53
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    I would love to have a fancy high dollar Dillion press, no experience with them, but bet they are great.
    Problem is I already have 3 Lee progressives. One I got for Christmas many years ago.
    The other two I got in a box from a LGS for 20 dollars for both. The Lees work fine for me and you can't beat the price.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    For what it's worth, bullet tilt measurements "at the ogive" are meaningless. I assume he means at the bore diameter but bullet ogive is the entire forward surface from full body diameter to meplat. Anyone wanting to know what his bullet run out really is must measure the bullet from the case mouth to as close to the tip as possible.

    "Testing" and comparing a collection of individual presses is interesting but pointless. Things vary in production so measuring and comparing single samples of different things is just not how valid statistics are done.
    I would presume his tool measured to a datum line on the Ogive, and saying that just gets the point across that he was not measuring to the tip of the bullet. Here is his sketch as to where he measured it, he used .200 and .600 from the case mouth, pretty easy to hit that spot every time if your much of a lathe hand .

    http://ultimatereloader.com/wp-conte...oints-2000.jpg

    There is a science to picking the samples at random from a group of concurrent parts...how many parts depends on level of precision. Also a measuring instrument should resolve to 10% of your tolerance.

    And the TIR setup and lathe spindle should be tested with a tapered pin to actually see what numbers you get after loading and unloading a "perfect" part. I did a lot of ID and OD grinding that required TIR of a few .0001" and every machine was an individual...some gave you wonky numbers turning the work head (a sort of spindle that rotates the part on a grinder) by hand but WOULD give honest number being spun under power.

    http://ultimatereloader.com/wp-conte...oints-2000.jpg

    I do not see that he ever measured ram to die ALIGNMENT, IMHO without that number the "slop" value is not as relevant. I operate with the notion that nothing is ever 0 to the tenth decimal place, so if we have .0019" mis alignment between die and ram, and .005" slop that slop may be GOOD rather than bad again IMHO. Then there is parallelism between the die and ram, and squareness of the shell holder to the ram axis of movement. None of those will every truly be "0". The mfg has a tolerance on all of those features.

    We start to devolve into how to define position ...there is a system we use called GDT, Geometric Design and Tolerance that helps define whether parts will function as made.

    Then there is some random with the sample size of 5 for each press too. Quite possible that a sample size of 5 concurrent parts will not give us enough data to make a truly accurate judgement. Kind of like shooting one 5 shot group and calling the work "done" because we got a .340" group at 100 yards .

    His whole mounting system was flexing all over the place in some video too...so that will screw with data too probably.

    Bill
    Last edited by Willbird; 04-24-2019 at 11:08 AM.
    Both ends WHAT a player

  15. #55
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    Also on machines numbers may change from cold start up to at operating temperatures. As lube pressures are different and flows of lubes different. Temps may change tolerance's on the spindle and machine slightly. What a press is lubed with how often and such will have an affect. A light oil on the ram will allow more float or play than a super thick grease will. A true test would be sizing 100 or more cases and a sample pulled from start middle and end of the batch this would show cold warmed up and thinned lubes. In industry samples are pulled and measured or gaged every hour or so on the lines. Some of these samples are measured and tested for quality in some cases a small portion is subjected to "destructive" testing basically ran until it fails to meet specs.
    In the case of reloading presses running a press to out of spec testing would be a long slow process with a tech providing the recommended lubing and such. Most press will out last a couple owners. ( My buddies rock chucker is on its 3rd known operator).

  16. #56
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    Most all my purchases are made as an algebraic sum of the pluses and minuses of function, cost, and usability/ease of use for me. I had RCBS, Herter, Lyman, and Pacific single stage presses through the years -- all functioning OK for my needs. THEN, I got into/started loading for .25ACP, .32Auto, and .380 -- and one of these calibers' loading caused quite a bit of blood, and a scar I still bear on my left forefinger. At a sportsman's expo a few months after I lowered seating die on my finger, I saw, and tried, a Redding BOSS -- the lowest-pried one. Since, I've purchased and use two of these: I can both see what I'm doing, and, the way it is designed, can do it quite easily and safely! The amount of flex, alignment, etc. became a second order variable.
    Perhaps my choice basis are not for total precision, as much as for total enjoyment of the hobby.
    geo

  17. #57
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    EDG I would love my brain surgeon or pilot of the plane I’m on have your attention to detail.
    It’s great to have a place I can find people with the brains , money , tools and time to help me figure out an answer to a problem but for the most part I roll along getting the most “bang “for my buck and having a good safe time , for me the problems are trigger pull and sight picture.

  18. #58
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    Concerning press leverage, I have two original Rock Chuckers and one Rock Chucker 2. The originals had a bicycle type grip, the model 2 had a ball type grip. The bicycle type was always hard on the palm of my hand, sometimes leaving blisters depending on how much I pulled that handle during a given session. The one with the ball handle is much more comfortable as it rotates in the palm and spreads the load over a greater area. There was enough difference that I got ball type handles for the older two presses. I am not comparing two different manufacturers, but a difference in ergonomics. The ball handles have much less PERCEIVED load.
    Ergonomics can make a huge difference in the perception of how something works. I also have a SDB2. It also has a ball handle. I don't think I would like it very much if it had that old bicycle type grip. I am a tool and die maker by trade, so I certainly appreciate precision, but the ergonomics are also a big factor in satisfaction with a given product. Point is, use what it appropriate for your own use, and what is comfortable for you as an individual.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    I have no idea how a case entering a die knows if it's moving up or the die is moving down, relative only to the user. ???
    If you are serious, it's the deflection of the ram, more or less moving sideways (bending) instead of applying CONSISTENT pressure force to the brass.
    A larger diameter ram wouldn't deflect as much giving more consistent pressures.

    A 'Puller' press uses two arms, located both sides of the case, don't stretch as much as the single small diameter ram deflects, so the pressure applied is more consistent.

    Agreed, 99.99% of reloaders wouldn't notice the difference.
    That 0.01% with the correct measuring equipment and want as consistent of brass that is humanly possible (and I don't mean possible in a unicorn or lawyer way) the puller/coaxial presses would do a better job.

    As the case hits the die walls, the unsupported guides are VERY short, so no side to side movement,
    And steel stretches more reliably/consistently than it pushes up unsupported.
    Keeping in mind the ram is mostly unsupported by the time the brass hits die walls with a pusher.

    When the tolerance in my pusher 'O' ring got sloppy, I bored the frame larger to clean it up and made a larger diameter ram, and hardened it, instead of bushing the frame and installing a factory ram.
    The press got a slight bit more consistant, even from when it was new.
    The principal is a no-brainer, but the materials & time involved quadrupled the investment in that single press, time being money in a machine shop...
    Large scale from a manufacturer would drive that cost way down.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    Ergonomics is a big part of any equipment used. Handles that fit the hand controls and adjustment in easy reach. A lot of thought and testing go into this when working up a new item. A Having to reach stretch for the machine is tiring and becomes uncomfortable. An example is a coax or Summit press on a bench that's comfortable to use then mount a rock chucker lee or other press with the lower handle mount and it may become an issue due to the difference in handle location. Another is how colors affect this. One reason a lot of machine equipment is grey is its easy on the eyes to look at all day.

    A machine you sit in front of for hours working little things can make a big difference
    Even the spectrum of light makes a big difference!
    'Harsh', 'Glaring' light will kill you quick.

    People talk about light being 'Warm' or 'Inviting',
    I use cheap lights that are really bright, but I also slip cheap tint 'Gels' over them when I don't need the bright 'Glaring' light.

    I need the bright for set up checks, but when I sit down to run 10,000 brass, the gels go on (loop & staple).
    I don't have the lights burned into my eyes at the end of the run.

    With a pump handle press, ball never above shoulder, feet flat on the floor, no wobbling or walking benches...
    If you have to bend at all when the handle goes down, the press is too low (or your butt is too high).

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