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Thread: How many of these myths do you still believe?

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy Burnt Fingers's Avatar
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    I'm on a couple of other forums whose legal teams have told them to not allow direct quoting of ANY copywrited material. There are a couple of shysters out there who are suing forums that allow it and they are winning some pretty heavy judgements.
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  2. #22
    Count me in as a myth-believer then (except for #5, which I agree with but don't believe ever was a myth). This article is an example of cherry-picking anecdotal evidence to support your point while ignoring a mountain of evidence that would discount your position.

    Myth 1. I don't care. I would still rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. If you die you lose everything.

    Myth 2. Yep. Aim center mass. If you miss small you still hit something. Sure a head shot would be almost 100% effective at stopping the attack, a head-miss is about completely useless, and far more likely.

    Myth 3. I don't think I've ever heard the He who shoots first wins. I've always heard something more akin to "he who hits first wins". Well, here the author cites a few examples to support their claim, but doesn't account for a zillion other stories where the guy who scores the first hit causes the second guy to miss, then first guys is able to follow up with more hits.

    Myth 4. Again, a few examples where more than 6 shots were needed, but ignore the thousands where the situation ended after 3 shots or less. The myth is usually used to justify a revolver's limitations. After owning both, I can see why some would recommend a revolver. There are some practical advantages.

    Myth 5. I don't disagree with the author. In fact I don't recall reading or hearing anyone say that gun and ammo don't matter. It's just not a myth. Sure there are some currently that are saying caliber doesn't matter (as much as people thought) - but those same people are very emphatic that choice of ammo (bullet selection) is very important. So myth #5 is nothing more than a straw-man. Way to knock 'em down!

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Myth #2. I always told my students to imagine a basketball being held in front of their chest. Aim for the middle of the basketball. High, low, left or right, they are going down.

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy
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    K well some of those statements aren’t myths. A good shoot IS by definition a good shoot regardless of ones definition of “good”.

    And trying to aim for “vitals” is laughable in a self defense situation. Get rounds on target and you will be better than average.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Myth 1: The foundation of this country is that you are innocent until proven guilty. No matter the attitude of the crazies, if you kill in self defense in accordance to the laws, you will be set free. It will not be fun, and it will cost dearly, but a rightful killing (I hate the term "good shoot") is what it is.

    Myth 2: I agree with you. I'm not aiming for the gut. I'm aiming for the heart/lungs or brain. That's mid/upper chest, between the nipples for the 2 legged.

    Myth 3: I'm not sure this is a myth. I think most of us agree that a keeping as cool as you can, and making good shots is the most important thing. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.


    Myth 4: I'll agree with you, even as a revolver shooter. I always have spare ammo on me. Whether or not 98% of the time 3 shots is enough is irrelevant. Sometimes it's not. You can't prepare for everything, but having a reload on you is easy.


    Myth 5: Of course it matters. In the matter of 2 legged it's just so far down the priority list. I wouldn't walk around Alaska with a 22LR pistol if at all possible.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt Fingers View Post
    I'm on a couple of other forums whose legal teams have told them to not allow direct quoting of ANY copywrited material. There are a couple of shysters out there who are suing forums that allow it and they are winning some pretty heavy judgements.
    Do you have a source for these "pretty heavy judgements"?
    My google-fu wasn't able to locate any judgements.

    I did find this.
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-eu...-the-internet/
    apparently a copyright troll got a nasty judgement trying to bring the type of copyright lawsuits that you claim.

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master
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    The reason I carry a reload is not because I believe I will need it during the shooting event. All the evidence says that is unlikely.

    I carry a reload because I don’t want a mostly empty or empty gun after the shooting event. I don’t know how long it will take for help to arrive, or if in fact the shooting event is fully over, and having an empty or empty(er) gun seems to me to be of less value than if it had its full capacity.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    My take away on the article - I'm going to start carrying my Colt Navy loaded with .36 pure lead roundballs and practice at 70 yds. One shot, in the heart, while under fire.
    I think it was Wyatt Earp who said, "When you're in a gunfight, take your time, in a hurry".

  9. #29
    Boolit Master



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    And for those who choose to continue to believe in these stated myths or argue with the author, you are up against one of the most credentialed gun defense and training experts on the planet...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob

    Ayoob has authored several books and more than 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues, and has served in an editorial capacity for Guns Magazine, American Handgunner, Gun Week, Guns & Ammo and Combat Handguns. Since 1995, he has written self-defense and firearms related articles for Backwoods Home Magazine. He also has a featured segment on the television show Personal Defense TV, which is broadcast on the Sportsman Channel in the US.

    While Ayoob has been in the courtroom as a testifying police officer, expert witness, and police prosecutor, he is not an attorney; he is, however, a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), and is believed to be the only non-attorney ever to hold this position.[3][4] His course for attorneys, titled "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case", was, according to Jeffrey Weiner: "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school."[4]


    Not saying he's absolutely perfectly correct about everything, but if you think one of the most respected experts in the world is wrong about almost everything in the article, well, maybe it's not him?
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  10. #30
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    I carry reloads in all my defensive handguns and rifles, simply because I don't like most factory ammo. Also, for ammo I do like, there is no guarantee it will be available and/or affordable. One plus for factory ammo I will say, is that premium defensive ammo is probably going to have a higher chance of going bang the first time and properly feeding and ejecting compared to reloads. Ammo companies spend million$ on R&D and are staffed with people who do this for a living. They also have access to just about any components they want and do their own QC on them which I am not capable of; being that I am dependent on whatever is available at retail. I will be the first one to admit that myself, the hobby reloader in his basement, just can't match their resources. Really the only two advantages I have are A.) my ammo is made to my specs for my specific guns and is tested thoroughly, and B.) I load each round one at a time and can inspect it at each stage of the loading process.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    I don't pay much attention to myth or fact these days. Especially those by armchair commandos. For fact they will stretch something into a situation were it could occurr just about as often as you can win the lottery. I have seen "myths" busted the same way. When listning to advice on gun fighting check out the guy and see if he's ever been near a gunfight. I have seen clips on instructing people how to drop to the ground when shot at. Very stylish and keeps their Dockers from undue smudges. Any one who has been shot at needs very little instruction on hitting the dirt. I feel sorry for people who actually are wanting the training and some even pay for it from these type programs. There are to many shysters that have got into SD & HD just to make money.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post
    Hollow points are also safer for innocent bystanders, whether cops, security professionals or armed citizens fire them. The hollow-nosed bullet’s expansion slows it down and usually leaves it lodged in the opposite side of the opponent’s body and clothing, or lying on the ground a few feet behind him, spent. A 9mm or .45 FMJ round can go through two bystanders and into a third deep enough to leave three innocents lying dead on the ground.
    Where do you find these 9mm bullets with enough energy to take out 3 people? If you're shooting innocents does it matter if you take out 1 or 3? Any evidence of FMJ rounds going through a perp and then taking out an innocent or 2 or is all that just a bunch of myths?

  13. #33
    Boolit Master




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    The one thing to remember if you are ever in a shooting event, 1 don't dump your ammo as fast as you can, 2 aim each shot and have an idea of where it is going, 3 having a firearm in a gun fight beats anything else, 4 caliber is based on so many things, age, eye sight, ability to move, health, strength, etc. So for some a .22lr just might be the right caliber while for others something large might be right. 4 do everything you can to stay safe and out of harms way always. As to where to aim upper body is best if you can see it, other wise it is what is visible to you. Know your 6 and surrounds and stay safe
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  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by reddog81 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post

    Hollow points are also safer for innocent bystanders, whether cops, security professionals or armed citizens fire them. The hollow-nosed bullet’s expansion slows it down and usually leaves it lodged in the opposite side of the opponent’s body and clothing, or lying on the ground a few feet behind him, spent. A 9mm or .45 FMJ round can go through two bystanders and into a third deep enough to leave three innocents lying dead on the ground.
    Where do you find these 9mm bullets with enough energy to take out 3 people? If you're shooting innocents does it matter if you take out 1 or 3? Any evidence of FMJ rounds going through a perp and then taking out an innocent or 2 or is all that just a bunch of myths?
    Perhaps it might be a good thing for the round to hit 2-3 others. For example if there is a crew of bad guys/"street jackals" harassing ya when they are in a group & begin to try "to inflict serious bodily harm or death" on your person, it seems to me that it would be considered, "reasonable", if you actually did hit a couple extra bad guys/"street jackals) with one shot, miss of intended target or not.


    Just saying... something to consider, anyway...


    One other consideration is that if you completely miss your intended bad guy target, and hit an innocent bystander, the difference of having a FMJ or an HP round fired seems a bit moot, since the bystander gets hurt regardless of what kind of projectile is hitting them if you miss your intended target. Particularly if you are unable to escape the situation & they keep coming for ya... ( I have dealt with this group attack personally & unarmed, and it "is" a possibility, if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, even if by accident. I don't know about everyone, but IMO, handling multiple opponents intent on making your day an unpleasant one, is not fun, armed or not. If ya think that is **, then Try it, if ya don't believe me. See if ya enjoy it, or not. )

    Once again, the rule of looking not only at thee target, but what is beyond should be not just something that is said & talked about, but an "active" part of your mental processes "Before" you squeeze the trigger at anything, even bad guys. Of course one may be in a situation where you cannot be sure of the background because the happening is fast/quick, but if that is the case, unless they are some distance from you & are not so much of an "in close" threat and gives you a bit of time to see beyond the bad guy, being up close you would/should be more likely to hit the intended target, even if you do not see what is beyond, and you will just have to deal with the situation as it plays out. Even if it is a HP round & not a FMJ or the like, it will likely pass thru when up real close one would think (< I have not researched this possibility), and if it does, the next thing impacted by the projectile is likely going to have to absorb what energy is left in that projectile after passing thru a body somewhere. ( think if you fire an HP thru something like the flesh of the arm/leg, or other place & not hit a bone & what might happen to the projectile , regardless of what type it is, & what might happen with it & where it ends up, is what I am saying.)

    I am not posting to argue with anyone. Only to put somethings out to consider when making decisions that might be worth pondering/consideration "before" you find yourself in need to use possibly "deadly force" against someone or others.


    Have fun. I knew it would be an interesting topic.
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  15. #35
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom W. View Post
    But, but, what about gravity? If the earth is spinning so fast why do things fall down instead of getting launched into space?
    well gravity is a myth depending on what you call gravity. Its been replaced by theory of relativity for some time now. If by gravity you mean a force then its a myth. Falling from gravity is traveling a straight line on curved space theres no forces happening on the object.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post
    And for those who choose to continue to believe in these stated myths or argue with the author, you are up against one of the most credentialed gun defense and training experts on the planet...

    Not saying he's absolutely perfectly correct about everything, but if you think one of the most respected experts in the world is wrong about almost everything in the article, well, maybe it's not him?
    I used to drink the Ayoob Kool-Aid pretty hard. I have been reading him since the first issue of American Handgunner in the early 70's. I have a very good friend that is his neighbor and they shoot together weekly. I still have a get deal of respect for him but the issue of reloads being a legal issue for self defense is not based on actual court cases. It is based on ONE case the was badly mishandled. Easy enough to prove by the lack of actual court cases that using a reload was an issue.

    Ayoob (like all gun writers) is in a position that pushing purchasing new products has financial benefits for him.

    When you take one of his classes you use factory ammo period. That is based on below average abilities of some reloaders. Spend some time at a public shooting range and you see it all the time. Ayoob doesn't want himself or his paying customer wasting time with reloaded ammo issue during his class.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-16-2019 at 10:56 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post
    And for those who choose to continue to believe in these stated myths or argue with the author, you are up against one of the most credentialed gun defense and training experts on the planet...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob

    Ayoob has authored several books and more than 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues, and has served in an editorial capacity for Guns Magazine, American Handgunner, Gun Week, Guns & Ammo and Combat Handguns. Since 1995, he has written self-defense and firearms related articles for Backwoods Home Magazine. He also has a featured segment on the television show Personal Defense TV, which is broadcast on the Sportsman Channel in the US.

    While Ayoob has been in the courtroom as a testifying police officer, expert witness, and police prosecutor, he is not an attorney; he is, however, a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), and is believed to be the only non-attorney ever to hold this position.[3][4] His course for attorneys, titled "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case", was, according to Jeffrey Weiner: "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school."[4]


    Not saying he's absolutely perfectly correct about everything, but if you think one of the most respected experts in the world is wrong about almost everything in the article, well, maybe it's not him?
    I wouldn't say he doesn't know what he's talking about. I would say he's creating straw-man myths that aren't really out there. I've never, ever, heard anyone advise that the first person to make his gun go boom wins. I've never, ever heard that "if you can't do it with 5 or 6, you can't do it at all.". And I've never ever heard that choice of gun and ammo doesn't matter. I have heard "aim for center mass", but as a hunter I've been taught, and practice "aim for center of vitals". In fact that is what has been drilled into my head so much that I just naturally thought that is what is meant by "center mass". So I question whether there's anyone advocating for gut-shots.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Jeff Cooper was asked the "what bullet" question once. He responded, "what time of the year is it? ", and went on to explain that if he was likely the criminal would be wearing a light shirt the JHP, but winter in a cold region where they're likely wearing heavy clothing and a coat that ball ammo gets the nod. He stated that sub calibers should always use ball ammo because the rounds are generally slow and penetration trumps expansion. Who cares if your perfectly expanded bullet only goes 2 inches deep?
    I do some IDPA shooting, with a revolver, against the wonder nines, and usually am in the upper mid range of scores. This is with just as good of times and half the ammo! Don't forget, I am responsible for where every round ends up!

    Are these a myths? If your expecting trouble, bring a rifle! 30 rounds can get you into trouble, but usually 90 can get you out, and a rifle always trumps a pistol. The determination of your assailant has more to do with shooting outcomes than calibur.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by reddog81 View Post
    Where do you find these 9mm bullets with enough energy to take out 3 people? If you're shooting innocents does it matter if you take out 1 or 3? Any evidence of FMJ rounds going through a perp and then taking out an innocent or 2 or is all that just a bunch of myths?
    First of all, you are quoting Massad Ayoob and not me. Second, I don't understand why people who apparently get so offended by a statement such as the one quoted don't simply do their own research.

    You obviously have a computer and access to the internet.

    Why demand that I provide evidence or cases of FMJ rounds going through bad guys and hitting innocents when you are perfectly capable of taking 30 seconds and searching it yourself.

    In fact, if you had done that instead of demand that others find the proof for you, then perhaps you wouldn't look so foolish when multiple examples get posted.
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post
    First of all, you are quoting Massad Ayoob and not me. Second, I don't understand why people who apparently get so offended by a statement such as the one quoted don't simply do their own research.

    You obviously have a computer and access to the internet.

    Why demand that I provide evidence or cases of FMJ rounds going through bad guys and hitting innocents when you are perfectly capable of taking 30 seconds and searching it yourself.

    In fact, if you had done that instead of demand that others find the proof for you, then perhaps you wouldn't look so foolish when multiple examples get posted.
    I'll have to assume you had as good of luck finding an example where multiple people were killed as I did...

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check