Smooth bores?

[faustus]

I guess my question is .... why is there not more research done on smooth bores?

Last week end I hit the range for the first time this year ... and I tried my 870 ... 12ga with Ghost Rings at 100 meters/yards ... and with Federal TruBall slugs.

And to be honest, I was pretty much surprised at the accuracy that I got that day.

1.) First, ghost ring sights are not the most accurate sighting system.
2.) This was from an 18.5 inch barrel on an an 870 Police shotgun with a fixed Improved Cylinder choke and with a lousy trigger showing lots of creep.
3.) The main component for the success ... I guess ... is the Federal TruBall rifled slug.
4.) My front sight was covering 80% of the paper target .... so much for accuracy ... and a fine tuned sighting system.









I am just imagining ... with a better trigger .... a better sighting system ... even better ammo ... what accuracy I could get. I mean who needs a rifle at 100 meters/yards if you could get sufficient accuracy to hunt large game at that distance and from a smooth bore? And I can still shoot small game with shot ... and with the same gun.

So, why is nobody doing more research in this field? Smooth bore accuracy with slugs out to 100 plus meters/yards???

Why?

I just don't get it ....


p.s.: That little ball in the picture makes all the difference!!

[Ozark mike]

About the only way to improve accuracy with a slug would to rifle the bbl as far as tech goes one would think besides a crisper action scope and recoil reducer

[NyFirefighter357]

Remington shotguns usually shoot good groups with Remington rifled slugs or Winchester rifled slugs. !00yrds with a shotgun is normal range sighting here. I had a friend that regularly shot deer over 100yrds with a Rem 1100 and Remington slugs.

[Hogtamer]

1) for a better sighting system buy a good saddle mount on your 870 and a scope.
2) cut a half round off the trigger spring and polish the sear for a better trigger.

The majority of this forum is about smoothbores but you're close to "as good as it gets" with a smoothbore shotgun and those slugs you're shooting. Nice job.

[centershot]

faustus,
Personally, I beleve the pinnacle of smoothbore accuracy was achieved many years ago when Ithaca Gun Co. introduced their Deerslayer model. In 12 ga. their barrel I.D. miked .710", IIRC. Coupled with a scope sight and ammo it liked I was able to achieve 4" groups with mine at 100 yards. My dad had one that would make cloverleafs at 75 yards. I wish I still had those guns!

By the way, from what I've seen, those Federal Tru-Balls are the best thing that ever happened to smoothbore shooters, good job on that target!

[Ozark mike]

faustus,
Personally, I beleve the pinnacle of smoothbore accuracy was achieved many years ago when Ithaca Gun Co. introduced their Deerslayer model. In 12 ga. their barrel I.D. miked .710", IIRC. Coupled with a scope sight and ammo it liked I was able to achieve 4" groups with mine at 100 yards. My dad had one that would make cloverleafs at 75 yards. I wish I still had those guns!

By the way, from what I've seen, those Federal Tru-Balls are the best thing that ever happened to smoothbore shooters, good job on that target!

My Mind must be going for some reason I was thinking the deer slayer was a version of the Browning auto 5 don't know what I was thinking always liked those Ithaca deer Guns fine weapon's indeed

[longbow]

I'm with you Faustus! My preference is still smoothbore due to its versatility. I don't really want a .73 cal. "rifle" which is what a fully rifled shotgun is... though having said that I may make the plunge.

However, after watching the Taofledermaus videos using rifled choke tube and SMOOTHBORE shooting the Moose .69 Minie and the Lyman 730 gr. .69 Minie I have decided to try the Moose Minie in my smoothbore (my copy of the Moose Minie anyway) and see how it goes. If I get even close to the results they got on the Taofledermaus video I will be happy! If not then I put my rifled choke tube adaptor on my shotgun! If that doesn't do it I may just go fully rifled.

As for smoothbore accuracy, I'll agree that factory Foster slugs can be darned accurate and yet I have not managed to equal them with home made slugs and loads. The best I have shot so far are Federal Fosters (not Tru-Ball, this was in pre-Tru-Ball days) and AQ slugs which I loaded. Both would maintain 6" or less groups at 100 yards. Winchester and Remington Foster loads were no slouches either from my gun. I wish I could get my home loads to do as well at as long a range!

Tru-Ball slugs do have a reputation for accuracy! I haven't tried any yet but I believe it. Lots of good reports on them.

As for improving your trigger, you might try the M-Carbo spring set. I put one in my Mossberg Slugster and the trigger is much nicer now. Wouldn't fix creep but that wasn't an issue with my Slugster, just really HEAVY trigger pull!

I also shimmed the barrel but am embarrassed to say that I have not shot it yet with the new brass shim I made. Been busy and distracted with other "stuff". That shim tightened the barrel up a lot.

I will get to it shortly I hope and report back on the Moose Minie copy accuracy from my smoothbore.

Longbow

[GhostHawk]

I hunted deer for years with a Rem 870 20 ga and federal slugs. Once I learned a few things I had no problem making meat.

I do need to get out and test my Lee 7/8ths oz slug loads for a couple of different 12 ga guns I have.

[6pt-sika]

It’s kinda like complaining about the food to the cook . If you think you can do better DO IT YOURSELF Now with that being said , regardless of what anyone may do and be kind enough to post on a place like this , someone is gonna be negative because the person who paid the bill didn’t do it the way someone else who wants the info for FREE wanted it done .

[6pt-sika]

However, after watching the Taofledermaus videos using rifled choke tube and SMOOTHBORE shooting the Moose .69 Minie I have decided to try the Moose Minie in my smoothbore (my copy of the Moose Minie anyway) and see how it goes. If I get even close to the results they got on the Taofledermaus video I will be happy!

Longbow

I’m gonna soon see how the Moose Wadcutter Minnie’s do in both 10 and 12 gauge smoothbore guns . And with both HB and solid base . Matter of fact I would not be surprised if I plunk a deer this coming season with one of the 10 gauge loads from one of my Parker FIXED choke doubles .

[Bazoo]

There is occasional research and improvement in the smooth bore field but it isn't much. The wheel has already been invented and it's hard to improve on it as it's as round as it is going to get. Slug hunting went to the rifled barrel niche and most of the slug research is there.

[Petander]

I'm all in for better accuracy,being a long time Long Range shooter. But it got too serious at one point, I was shooting 300 m every other week trying to get 22 mm groups instead of 24 mm the week before...

Shotgun slugs are relaxing fun to me, I accept fist size 10 shot grouping @ 35 meters. We have no "shotgun only" rules here,my deer and moose are rifle game.

But if we had "shotgun only" I'm sure I'd have been working with rifled barrels for decades. Now a slug is just a "nice to have option" with smoothbore, it is deer legal and a situation may come up. I do compete with slugs in one club,too. Great fun!

My "Economy Slugs" (converted trap ammo) costs the same to shoot as factory 9mm subsonic ammo.

[RED BEAR]

Hey good shooting better than i could do at 100 yrds . Smooth bores can be very accurate to reasonable ranges saw something once adout a fellow shooting smooth bore to 180 yrds and groups were very impressive. After all a lot of tank guns are smooth bore.

[centershot]

Over the years the call for greater accuracy from hunters in shotgun-only areas was heard by the manufacturers and today we have the plethora of rifled-barrel shotguns, Lightfield sabot, etc. That's OK! They meet a need for a lot of hunters. I myself fell victim to that "need" for more, i.e., better accuracy at one point. Long story short, here in the eastern U.S. we hunt in heavily timbered woodlands and swamps. IF you can even SEE a deer at 100 yds. there's no way you're gonna' get a shot into him, shotgun OR rifle. I've hunted big game since 1970, in all that time every deer I've killed, with three exceptions, was within thirty yards. When that thought became fixed in my mind I went back to hunting with a shotgun. A smooth bore with VR barrel and two beads for sights. IMO, the shotgun was always meant to be a do-it-all gun. Versatile. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a dedicated scope-sighted slug gun if that's what you want. There's nothing wrong with the pursuit of that magic one hole group, if that's what you want. I'm still working up slug loads for my guns, just because it's FUN! Man-o-man, once you start down this slug-making rabbit hole........OOOOOEEEEEEE!

[Cap'n Morgan]

Well, maybe it's time for Hickok45 revisited: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNTyCcip-ks

230 yards, open sights, smoothbore and offhand!

[W.R.Buchanan]

To the OP, you asked,,, "So, why is nobody doing more research in this field? Smooth bore accuracy with slugs out to 100 plus meters/yards???"

50 % of this forum is totally devoted to this topic! Lots of us are pursuing this goal.

OK just to clear up a few things the Browning A5 Slug Gun was known as the "Buck Special," and has a choked Smooth Bore Barrel with open rifle sights. (See Pic below) Ithaca's Deer Slayer is also a choked barrel and they figured out that the slug which normally undersized would center up in the bore at ejection with a light choke of around I C or .715 ish. It appears from my research that Browning figured it was a good idea and followed suit. These guns typically are a little more accurate than a strait Cylinder Bore Barrel.

As far as the sighting systems and bad triggers these can be Improved or Learned. The biggest problem with Riot Guns and bad triggers is the fact that these guns are seldom fired enough to even break them in well. My Mossberg 500 had a funky trigger, 3 Front Sight Tactical Shotguns Classes cured that, along with making the gun run much smoother. I had cleaned up the action before I went the first time but I didn't mess with the trigger other than deburring the safety parts so they ran smoothly. 1000 rounds has fixed the trigger. However I have so many guns that I can't do trigger jobs on all of them. Sometimes you just have to learn the trigger and actually practice with it . All my Glocks (4 ea.) have the same trigger and they all are well broken in and I can shoot each one well with only a few dry fire shots as a warm up.

You can't do very much to improve the trigger on a #4 Mk 1 Enfield, They all have 40 yards of creep and you kinda have to live with it. However it can be learned and that's what I have done.

I suggest more shooting! Less thinking.

Now the the Target and Sight Thing. The OP's target is what lots of us use as they are common, however there is a better one out there. It is called a Black Diamond 3" for 50 yards and for 100 yards a 6-8" one is appropriate. The POA is the bottom point of the diamond.

Ghost Ring sights are designed for quick target acquisition. However the accuracy can still be there if combined with the Diamond shaped target. You simply put the bottom point of the Diamond in the middle of the top of the Front Sight and let fly. This takes a little practice but will yield much better accuracy. The size of the hole in the rear sight is of no consequence as the Front Sight automatically is centered in the rear sight by your eye.

I just shot this 3 shot group at 50 yards last week with my Browning A5 "Buck Special" with Open Sights. It measure 1" x 1.5". I didn't have any bigger Diamonds or I would have shot at 100 yards.

It helps to shoot heavy recoiling Shotguns off a Lead Sled to suck up some of the recoil. Then you can concentrate on the Sight Picture instead of getting the snot knocked out of you.

It can be done, and all we are doing is reinventing the Brown Bess Musket of 300 years ago. We have sights, and better ammo, but keep in mind that Factories that produce ammo have much larger budgets for research that most of us do, so it would seem logical that they would be able to produce ammo that would shoot better than your average home craftsman. However that isn't always true.

Lightfield started out at home and is now regarded as the Premier 12 and 20 Bore High Accuracy Ammunition Manufacturer in the US. His ammo will yield Sub MOA accuracy from the right guns (See Tarhunt 12 and 20 ga. Rifles) and claims to yield excellent results from Smoothbore barrels as well. I will see if that holds up when I test mine.

The Brenneke Catalog shows 2-2.5" groups at 50 yards from smooth bores and the same at 100 yards with rifling.

So to fully answer the question, We are working on this and there will probably never be an end all solution. There is simply too many roads to go down, too many things to try, and too much fun to have!

My .02

Randy

[pashiner]

If it wasn't for the flier bottom left, you'd have a 4 inch group there! Pretty impressive if you ask me. I have a feeling smoothbore accuracy can only be improved to a point with 12 gauge size projectiles, plastic shells, and the chambers/forcing cones on production guns. I think if I were you, I'd stock up on those tru-balls, and call it a win!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Even with the flyer that group is pretty dang good for a Smoothbore Riot Gun at 100 yards. I'd be pretty happy. And if I hadn't already spent a bunch of $ on components to load at home or wasn't interested in the subject I'd probably just buy a bunch of Tru Balls and be done with it.

Most guys who hunt with a shotgun are only going to fire a few rounds a year so paying a dollar a piece for ammo is not a big deal.

In the 2 day Tactical Shotgun Class I'm going to tomorrow I will shoot 175 rounds of #8's, 25 Bucks and 25 slugs. In a 4 day class it is 350 #8's, 75 Bucks and 75 slugs or right at 500 rounds. That gets expensive, but luckily there is a Walmart close by!

I can't reload #8s for 21.74 cents each! But I can load homemade slugs for way less than that using new RIO Primed hulls. @.11 ea a .02 wad and .04 worth of powder. .17 for slugs is not bad, but my time isn't in that number.

Lots of ways to go here, and how can you put a price on fun.

Randy

[faustus]

If it wasn't for the flier bottom left, you'd have a 4 inch group there! Pretty impressive if you ask me. I have a feeling smoothbore accuracy can only be improved to a point with 12 gauge size projectiles, plastic shells, and the chambers/forcing cones on production guns. I think if I were you, I'd stock up on those tru-balls, and call it a win!

Thanks Pashiner, .... the bottom left was the first shot .... after that I knew where to hold .... upper right corner of the paper target. And you are right ... it seems I can do a 4" group at 100 yards ... I need to try it again to be sure.

But I was surprised by the result ... I did not think it was possible ... and especially not out of that gun with ghost rings. In my mind hunting accuracy with a smooth bore and foster slugs ended at 70 yards/meters. Now, I am not sure any more ... ??

I spent many many hundreds of dollars on sabots for my other 870 with a Hastings cantilever rifled barrel ... and to find an ammo / barrel match ... and I can only get 2" -3" group at that distance with that setup. And that is with a scope .... rifled cantilever barrel .... and proper cheek weld ... ok, the trigger is still lousy.

So, I am asking myself ... why bother with a rifled setup? I could go smooth bore all the way .... I am the kind of guy that calls 100 yards/meters my max distance. And if that deer is further away .... then my challenge is to get closer to that deer ... thats all.

But somehow ... with the exception of this forum ...

(And I am really thankful for this forum and the spirit of testing and sharing)

.... there isn't much talk out there about improving accuracy with smooth bores .... and that is what I realized .... ??

[longbow]

I am thinking that a few of the tricks to smoothbore accuracy are:

- shim or pin the barrel to eliminate the slop that most if not all take apart pump guns have
- good sights/scope
- better trigger! I still haven't field tested my M*Carbo spring set but the trigger pull is abut half what is was and that has to help
- oversize slugs ~ in the spirit of Itahca making tight bored guns to ensure tight centered fit for slugs, a guy can use larger diameter slugs and accomplish the same thing. Brenneke says their 12 ga. slugs are nominal 0.735" and crush to any bore under that. Federal Tru-Ball use the balls to make sure the skirt expands and fills the bore.
- solid and consistent wad column ~ easier said than done I think. The factories have full control of what they use and what quality/tolerance it is. We buy bulk "stuff" from BPI or Precision reloading with little to no control over the quality and consistency and this "stuff" is adequate for shot loads while maybe not for slug loads.
- I'll add that even though I like the ease of loading wad slugs I think full bore slugs are likely more inherently accurate by eliminating non-precision made wads and cushion legs. Also see solid wad columns!

All of Winchester, Remington and Federal Foster slug loads have produced what I'll call near amazing accuracy from my slug gun all the way to 100 yards. I have not been able to equal that accuracy with my home brewed slugs and loads... came very close with hand loaded AQ slugs a few years ago though, but not with home cast slugs.

Really, as Randy says for the shooting a guy "has to do", buying factory Foster slugs, Brenneke's, Gualandi's or other full bore slugs is probably the easiest way to get consistent and good accuracy. My problem is that I like to tinker so am challenged to try to duplicate the factory slug performance. I've been at it for years, semi successfully at times, and it has probably taken years off my life! But a guy has to do something!

Longbow