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Thread: Problem with RCBS, Pacific dies or brass

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    Problem with RCBS, Pacific dies or brass

    I just bought 2 sets of 308 dies and 300 brass cases. The die sets were used and the brass was supposed to be once fired. The dies are RCBS and Pacific. The problem is they don't size the cases to where they slide into the chamber easily. I use a Savage 99c with removable mags. Store bought ammo works real nice but the reloaded stuff will not go into the chamber easily. It seems to me that the brass is too big right at the base of the cartridge. Any ideas what I can do to correct the problem. I don't know if a good cleaning of the dies will help and I'm not sure what to use to clean them.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Uh oh -- sounds like you need a "small base" die. RCBS makes some dies labeled "small base" because pumps and levers with less camming power need the brass reduced all the way to factory spec. Why they don't make the regular dies right to do that in the first place I do not know.

    I use Lee dies and they have always worked fine with my Savage 99's and my Remington pumps. Don't know if I have just been lucky or if Lee makes them the right size to begin with. Do you know anybody who would loan you a different die to try?

  3. #3
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    You need to screw the sizing die down until it touches the shell holder, and then give it another half turn to snug it up tight. This will take care of any flexing in the frame of the press, slop in the linkage, etc. That's the proper way to set up a rifle sizing die for a steel die.

    There are other factors, too. The brass may have been fired in an oversized chamber, possibly with long headspace, which is common in .308 which may have been fired in a machine gun, if it's GI/military brass that you've purchased.

    What I would do is blacken a sized case with a Sharpie marking pen and chamber it prior to taking any other steps with it. Any tight spots will show in the blackening, which will tell you where it's too tight. It will either be just forward of the case web, or the shoulder. If the sized case fits the chamber, then go to the next step in loading and do it again. Taking one step at a time will help to isolate where the actual problem lies.

    To clean dies, use the same method as cleaning your guns, and the same tools. Just be sure to apply a very thin coating of case lube to the inside of the sizing die prior to sizing another case, or you'll stick it in the die. A stuck case usually results in the operator saying words like "heck and darn", or something similar, so it's to be avoided when possible.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred

    PS: I'm 4 months older than you........
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    1. Make sure you are pushing the shoulder back far enough
    2. Use plenty of lube
    3. Size the cases slowly and dwell the ram at the top of the stroke for 3 to 5 seconds
    4. Lower the ram, spin the case about 1/3 turn and size again slowly with the dwell then repeat for sizing the case a 3rd time. If your brass still does not fit your chamber after multiple sizing passes you may need a small base die.

    I have loaded for levers, pumps and auto loaders using standard RCBS dies without the slightest problem for decades so I have no idea why a Savage 99 would need a small base die.
    EDG

  5. #5
    Boolit Master slughammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy1 View Post
    .... and 300 brass cases...... Store bought ammo works real nice but the reloaded stuff will not go into the chamber easily. It seems to me that the brass is too big right at the base of the cartridge.
    What headstamp and what is the source of the 300 pcs of brass? Is it maybe machine gun fired range pickup?

    Shoot some of the store bought ammo and try reloading that brass.

    If you want to clean your dies use bore brushes, solvent, rags, patches and maybe a piece of worn out fine scotch brite if needed.
    Happiness is a couple of 38's and a bucket of ammo.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I have had several 99c's in several cal. every one of them I had to use small base dies . 1 that I had we ran a finish reamer in to it and found a real tight chamber but it solved the problem.

  7. #7
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    We had two 99's - .300SAV growing up. Used Lyman 310 dies for loading both. Mixed Headstamps between both Rifles.

    I bought mine in H. S. also .300SAV, no reloaded ammo would chamber.
    Both my Dad's were made before 1950, mine in 1962.

    Had to buy RCBS Small Base Sizing set to load my Rifle.

    Goes to show ya, every Rifle is a Law unto itself.

    And the only Brass I've ever bought other then new was a lot of 500 FA 42 for my Garand.
    I don't trust "Used Brass" from any place/where.

    I don't trust any G. I. Brass that I didn't fire in my own guns.

    But I've used Std RCBS and LYMAN die sets to load for 3 different M1A's , 3 AR-15's , a Mini-14 and 3 M-1 Garands.

    Small Base dies are designed for Commercial Rifles like yours. Not sloppy military chambers, regardless of what the reloading companies what us to buy.
    I HATE auto-correct

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  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Grumpy, you you don't mention how long you've been into this stuff and that often matters. Thing is, doing any of this "by the instructions" usually works - after a fashion - but not always. Fact is, there are NO RULES for FL sizing that will work right every time; we have to adjust everything to achieve the results we need.

    Some dies are a little short so jamming a case into the sizer as far as it can go make easy chambering cases but it can also set the shoulders back a bit too far; that effectively causes excess headspace and that's not good. But, some dies are a bit longer and failing to push cases in them far enough gives the problem you're having.

    Never mind blindly screwing your sizer up or down by some arbitrary amount, do this instead; set up your sizer as you normally do and run a case fully up and leave it there. Next, look under the die and see if there is a gap between it and the shell holder - there probably will be. Drop the ram enough to free the die, screw the die down a tiny amount, maybe 1/16 turn, and do the gap check thing again. Continue adjusting and checking until the gap is closed, then try chambering the sized case. When it chambers, you're done and you won't be putting excessive stress on your tools either.

    Oh yeah, make sure you're putting a good coat of lube on the lower (head) of the case too. It's HARD to squeeze down a dry circle of near solid case head and that contributes to press springing. Most new guys tend to over apply case lube on the thin forward end of the cases and put too little on the near solid head where it's most needed - there be firmly stuck cases in doing that.
    Last edited by 1hole; 04-11-2019 at 09:53 AM.

  9. #9
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    If they are rcbs give them a call see what they have to say. I bought a set of used dies that were in green cardboard box and when i had a problem they sent me the parts to correct it no charge. They are the best on customer service. You have nothing to loose.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I have not had problems with multiple Savage 99's using Lee dies in 243 (3), 308 (5), or 300 Savage (4?). I did use an RCBS 'standard' 308 die and found it would not size fired LC 7.62x52(308) enough to chamber easily while my Lee die did. Lee advertises sizing to 'factory dimensions', RCBS makes 'standard', small-base, AND ultra small-base dies. I don't know if its marketing or they are trying to help you make brass last longer? I use a Redding full-length size 'S' die with neck bushing for most of my 308 reloading now, but I haven't tried it on once-fired military. I have resized military brass to both 243 and 300 Savage with final sizing in Lee dies and did not have any problems with case fit or hard chambering. I do use Redding Competition shellholders to set up sizing for each rifle, so excessive sizing/ shoulder setback is avoided, I find both the Lee and Redding dies require the same shellholder spacing for a particular rifle - +.004 for one, +.006 for three, and one at .008 for the .308's to avoid excessive shoulder setback but still allow smooth chambering.
    Last edited by MostlyLeverGuns; 04-11-2019 at 04:11 PM.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If I remember correctly, the original RCBS Small Base dies were made for the Savage 99 and the Browning Lever Actions. I had to have small base dies for a BAR that I once owned. (The sporting model not the military one). It sounds like you may need a small base die. Like Fred posted, you can clean dies like you would a rifle barrel. A bore brush, some solvent and a few patches followed up with some oil.

    Many reloaders use small base dies when they are not really needed. They do help if you are shooting surplus brass fired in machine guns. But I do seem to remember reading about using them in the '99 and the BLR.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    I had a 760 in 06' that occasionally wouldn't take it's own brass back . The solution was to ensure that the FL die bottomed on any brass that was not from that rifle . Because I had 2 other 06's at the time I had 2 sizers set up . 1 to just touch the outside of the fatest case , effectively a neck die . The second had been adjusted to touch the unloaded shell holder , fine for either of the other 2 and getting "other sourced" brass to fit . For that rifle it was needed to crush size brass so a 3rd sizer was located . Small base wasn't needed but first sizing for that rifle required that it be run up to a hard cam over in the RCII and be held there for a few seconds . I think 10 sec was where I arrived as a minimum hold . The 760 had virtually a match chamber in it . Oddly enough it had a long shoulder/neck to head diminsion and that brass wouldn't chamber in either a 110 or an 03A3 . Nor would the 03 share with the 110 or either of them with the 760 without the crush sizing .
    In the end it worked out . The 110 preferred LC , the 760 WW and the 03' FC ........ Truth over fiction .

    You might try a 45 ACP Bulge Buster or gut a 45 ACP FCD before you spring for a SB die .

    A friend has a 1972-4 JCP purchased 99C in 243 and it requires no special feeding beyond normal die set up . I did fit a couple of 308 cases to fill out 50 rounds .
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  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Grumpy1, Some simple trouble shooting may help here. once fired 308 brass can be all over the size due to the number of firearms chambered for it and the chambers that are cut.
    Ink a case up with a black marker or lay out ink. Carefully try to chamber a round in the firearm ( a couple are even better) look for scuff marks and bright spots in the ink. THis indicates the tight spots and where the case needs to be reduced further. Pay attention to the shoulder and body closer to case head. Scuff marks at the shoulder indicates the headspace is still to long and the die needs to go lower. Marks at body and base indicates die isn't small enough. Brass fired in military chambers or especially machine guns is notorious for being large when fired. This can be a job to get sized back down, sometimes a run into the die 1/2 turn and back thru the die again does it, pause of 5-10 secs at tip of stroke may help over come brass memory.

    First check new cases overall length to the book and then if possible to a chamber cast. to long cases can cause chambering issues.

    If the shoulder needs more and your tight to the shell holder the die may need a small amount removed from the face or from top of shell holder usually here .005-.008 is enough. I prefer to remove from the die so its not a special shell holder needed. You might try different shell holders also as they may vary some.

    Last to check is loaded round neck dia in comparison to your chamber.

    When this happens micrometers reloading manuals and markers are your friend

  14. #14
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    The OP checked on this thread yesterday morning, but didn't post. We don't know if he's trying any of the suggestions, but I'd like for him to rejoin the conversation and tell us if we're helping him, or not.

    Just my thought.
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  15. #15
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    1. Use new brass and keep it specific to each rifle.
    2. Buy Forester dies.
    Problem solved.
    (We own 8 1895/1899/99 Savages.)

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    . It seems to me that the brass is too big right at the base of the cartridge.
    Any time there is a fit problem, measure. Measure the sized cases in a few places along the case from neck/mouth to base. Measure the case length. Measure before and after sizing. I would measure a few cases fired in the gun too. Compare to factory ammo you measured. This will lead you to where the problem occurs and your solution, either gun or handload (die) problems...
    Last edited by mdi; 04-16-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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  17. #17
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks all for the suggestions. I tried several things to see if I could find the problem. I blacken the cases with a sharpie and found that found that the base was not being brought down enough. So I tried all the tricks adjusting that were suggested but none solved the problem. Next I went to my local gun shop and picked a new shell holder to try to take a bit of metal off the face of the shell holder, I ended up removing 0.007 off the top of the holder and that seems to solve the problem. I hope that by using the new shell holder it doesn't cause any other problems. In answer to a question about the shells I got they were Winchester, Imperial and Dominion no machine gun ammo I'm in Canada. I have only loaded 12g and 20g shotgun shells and 303 with the Lee Loader Set so I don't have a lot of experience with die sets.
    Thanks all I am learning so much.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Trimming the shell holder will push the shoulder back a small base sizer would be a better solution.
    Unless I missed something.

  19. #19
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by onelight View Post
    Trimming the shell holder will push the shoulder back a small base sizer would be a better solution.
    Unless I missed something.
    Thanks I took your advice and got sb die set. I agree that that seems will eliminate some other problems I may have caused.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    Grumpy1, howdy, and welcome from Kentucky. Im Chippewa from the Sault Ste Marie tribe in Upper Michigan. I've not been there yet, but my great grandmother was full blooded.

    Now, for my addition to your problem. Make sure you dont use that shaved shell holder for regular sizing. Now that you have a small base die, you shouldnt need the shaved shell holder at all. You should be able to use your regular dies and shell holder to resize cases that were fired in your rifle. The once fired brass you have was probably fired in a gun with a chamber on the large size.

    Shell holders are made standard at .125 thick and sizing dies are generally made standard so if they bottom out on the shell holder, they resize the case at, or near to saami specs. Lots of people adjust the die so the bottom does not contact the shell holder, and thus does not resize their cases fully, to extend brass life. With your shaved shell holder, it will set the shoulder back further than normal, and it will drastically shorten your case life if used regularly to full length resize.

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