Lee .44 M Factory Crimp Die issues

[Captain*Kirk]

Hi, I'm copying/pasting from a thread I did last year on another forum regarding the Lee FCD in .44RM using Berry's plated 240gr FN bullets to see if anyone experienced the same or similar issues here. The issue at hand was never resolved; in the end I just reverted to crimping with the standard RCBS RC die and it works just dandy. However, having an inquisitive mind, just saying the FCD "doesn't work" is not an answer, and neither Lee tech support nor Berry's Bullets could give me an acceptable answer other than "It should work". Well, it didn't, and I'd like to know why not.



I ordered a Lee factory crimp die for my .44 magnum reloads. Turns out my RCBS dies were roll crimp dies after all, and roll crimping plated bullets is somewhat frowned upon, as there is no cannelure. Mind you, they slip right in and out of the cylinder on my Super Blackhawk with simple gravity (Sir Isaac Newton would blush), shoot and group just fine using my standard RCBS carbide dies, but my research on the interweb thingie recommended a taper crimp on plated bullets. Having experienced nothing but awesomeness out of the Lee TC dies I have for my rifle cartridges, I immediately opted for the Lee FC die in .44 spl/.44RM. Tonight's exercise in frustration involved spooling up a lot of 50 and simply seating to the correct depth without using the roll crimp function in my RCBS die. I then set up the Lee FC die and proceeded to crimp cartridge #1. Harrumph...while it did give a slight crimp, the bullet was loose. I could spin it by hand. I gave the crimp knob another quarter twist, and...hell's bells! Despite all the flowery rhetoric on the instructions (see below) Nuts if it didn't bulge the case! I backed off on the adjustment and loaded one more. It seemed OK, but looked strangely similar to the couple hundred I had roll crimped using my RCBS dies. The next three turned out like THIS:


No, you are not imagining the huge bulge in the middle of the cases.

I then re-read the instructions:





Notice the fact that it is, apparently, a roll crimp die. Also notice the statements about being "impossible to buckle the case" and "crimps bullets with no cannelure"

To that, I say nonsense.
Quite frankly, the bullets I produced using the RCBS die were 100% more uniform with zero buckling or bulge. After pulling the bullets and powder and resizing the cases, I have three cases that MIGHT be able to be fire-formed and resized again, but doubtful. This die should have performed to the specifications in the instructions. Instead, it ruined three good cases. I will call Lee Precision to get their take on this before doing any negative reviews, but the Captain is NOT a happy camper.
FWIW, I stopped crimping immediately on the rest of the batch. No sense throwing good money after bad.

[Captain*Kirk]

Posted the following day after discussions with both Lee tech support and Berry's tech support:

OK, so I talked to Lee Precision this morning. All Tech Support could recommend was backing off on the crimp.
Let's recall, if we may, that the first crimp resulted in a loose bullet...
In lieu, they recommended I try either their taper crimp die, or their collet-type crimp die (which I thought I was getting in the first place). So I looked up the specs on these two dies
Turns out the taper crimp die description states "Jacketed bullets must have a crimp groove (cannelure)" So, no go there. Nuts.
Checking the collet-type die info reveals that it is NOT a carbide die. Nuts #2.
MidwayUSA tech support was unable to give me a confirmation on anything. But they did provide me with a tech support phone # to Berry's Bullets.
A phone call to Berry's gave me the info I wanted. First, they recommend a light roll crimp over a taper crimp or collet-type crimp. Second, the fact that it sort of makes it's own cannelure via the roll crimp process is not only acceptable, but actually preferred.
The solution? Go back to doing exactly what I was doing, roll crimping with the standard RCBS carbide die. Duh.
Since I've already paid for the Lee die plus shipping and it will cost me half again as much to return it, I'll just hang on to it and try it out on jacketed bullets with cannelure like the Hornady XTP's I load for defense.
Bottom line; don't believe everything you read on the internet.

What this tells me is that the Lee FCD is unsuitable for plated bullets such as the Ranier and Berry's despite what Lee's advertising says. I would not recommend using the FCD on any bullet without a cannelure.

[country gent]

Several things to remember when looking at dies and descriptions. First a carbide die isn't a solid carbide die body that would be prohibitive from material and machining costs perspective. The carbide in most carbide dies is a ring at the base in the sizing die about 3/8" wide pressed or soldered in place. The body is steel. Expanders, bell, and seaters are steel.

Crimping is done by rolling the case mouth in and if no room or "edge" to grab on over then its more a tightened neck tension. On some bullets with out grooves you can crimp over the shoulder or ogive. Some softer bullets you can push into the jacket or copper plating forming a chanelure while crimping, not the best way to do it but can be done. The true crimp needs a place to form into when forming or forces go much higher.

There are tools to roll the crimp groove into bullets that don't have them. In jacketed or copper plated I would question how it affects the integrity between jacket and core.

[Captain*Kirk]

Thanks for that info.
Since the RC RCBS carbide dies work, don't buckle the cases, produce a tight crimp and chamber easily in my Super Blackhawk, the obvious solution at this point is carry on with what I'm doing. Which, in fact, is what prompted me to dig this thread up. I recently loaded over 500rds using the Berry's bullets without a single hitch. Not one bad crimp, loose bullet or bulged case.
The point is, not every Best New Thing is necessary or even appropriate. And sometimes, it flat out doesn't even work...

[Walks]

Buy a GOOD TAPER CRIMP DIE.

From; RCBS, LYMAN OR REDDING.

Some things from Lee work Fine, some are Ok, and Some work lie ****.

[Maven]

[QUOTE=Walks;4622509]Buy a GOOD TAPER CRIMP DIE.

From; RCBS, LYMAN OR REDDING.


I second Walks' advice: saves a lot of problems regarding case length too.

[Carrier]

I have loaded 1000’s of 44 magnums with lead, plated and jacketed from mild to wild loads using the Lee FCD and have never had what you are having happen.
Something is not right be it the die or how you are using it. I would bet something is wrong with the die or the crimp insert.

[ioon44]

I removed the Carbide sizer ring from my Lee FCD as it was swagging the cast bullets for my .44 spl, with the sizer ring removed it does OK for the few .44 spl I load, if I were loading a lot of .44 spl I would use better dies.

[Gillie Dog]

I have loaded 1000’s of 44 magnums with lead, plated and jacketed from mild to wild loads using the Lee FCD and have never had what you are having happen.

That is my experience with the 44 mag LEE FCD also. Have never had any problems and a nice end product is produced. (Do not run cast though, only plated and jacketed.)

GD

[Moleman-]

Buy a lyman taper crimp die. It is a true gentle taper crimp and not the abrupt "taper" crimp that really produces a modified roll crimp that Lee sells. Do you have any neck tension? you mentioned being able to spin the bullet by hand. These pics are for a 357, but the cerro castings would be similar for 44. Note how short of a "taper" the Lee dies have v/s the Lyman taper crimp die. Bought my Lyman 44mag taper crimp die at the clearance bin at Gander mountain likely 30 years ago for $5.

[Captain*Kirk]

I have loaded 1000’s of 44 magnums with lead, plated and jacketed from mild to wild loads using the Lee FCD and have never had what you are having happen.
Something is not right be it the die or how you are using it. I would bet something is wrong with the die or the crimp insert.

Well, I am (was) using it EXACTLY per the written instructions I showed in the OP. You might be right about something being amiss with the die itself. I have yet to try it on a cannelured bullet, but I will eventually.

[Captain*Kirk]

Do you have any neck tension? you mentioned being able to spin the bullet by hand.

Oddly enough, yes. I'm using standard RCBS carbide sizer and expander dies and trimming brass to SAAMI specs chamfer/deburr before expanding. None of the bullets seated with the RCBS RC die are loose, only the ones seated with the Lee FC die.
I suspect what the issue is, is that despite what I was told the FC die is *really* not designed to be used with plated bullets. Either that, or there is an issue with the die I have.

[Moleman-]

Pull one of the loose bullets and measure it with a micrometer. Almost sounds like the carbide crimp die is sizing the bullets down or though over crimping the case is buckling just enough to loosen up the neck tension.

[Captain*Kirk]

Pull one of the loose bullets and measure it with a micrometer. Almost sounds like the carbide crimp die is sizing the bullets down or though over crimping the case is buckling just enough to loosen up the neck tension.

I can do that tonight. Just so happens I have one of the loose bullets on the bench still.

[onelight]

I have no idea what is causing your problem but you have a defective die or you are doing something wrong ,there are lots of people use those dies with good results.

[Carrier]

Either the sizer ring of that die is too small, crimped insert is wrong or it’s not a 44 Remington mag die.

[Captain*Kirk]

I have no idea what is causing your problem but you have a defective die or you are doing something wrong ,there are lots of people use those dies with good results.

Unfortunately, I have no way to tell if I am doing something wrong as I am following the die instructions to the letter. I've used the Lee FCD on every one of my other calibers and never experienced an issue until now.
A couple things come to mind:
1) I'm using RCBS dies for sizing and expanding. Maybe the finish dimensions are different from the Lee die specs?
2) Possibly my expander is putting too much bellmouth on the cases and instead of rolling the case mouth it is hanging up on it and crushing the case as a result?

[onelight]

Unfortunately, I have no way to tell if I am doing something wrong as I am following the die instructions to the letter. I've used the Lee FCD on every one of my other calibers and never experienced an issue until now.
A couple things come to mind:
1) I'm using RCBS dies for sizing and expanding. Maybe the finish dimensions are different from the Lee die specs?
2) Possibly my expander is putting too much bellmouth on the cases and instead of rolling the case mouth it is hanging up on it and crushing the case as a result?

I use Lee factory crimp on autos cases but have not had the need in any revolver rounds I load for.
Certainly the flare might be the cause I read in one of my lee sets if the flare is to large to enter the crimp die to adjust the bullet seating die to remove enough flare so it can enter the factory crimp die , the point of the factory crimp is to return cartridge to factory specs on the last stage this requires a fairly tight base this is the main complaint on the dies , because many guns need a bigger cast bullet than these dies allow. In my limited experience they do that but are not always the best choice it’s great to have many choices.

[44magLeo]

I Have the Lee Carbide FCD that came in my Lee four die set. I found it didn't work so well with bulets over .430 as most factory jacketed bullets are.
My cast bullets for My Marlin 1894 are .432+ The carbide ring in that die is too small for large cast bullets. As the case come out of die the ring sizes the case small enough so that the bullet gets sized down too. When the brass springs back a bit, this leaves the bullet loose in the case.
I then bought Lee's Collet Crimp dies. Works much better.
I now use the Carbide FCD with out the crimp insert, just the body as a sizing die for the Marlin. I don't recall the measurements right now but it doesn't size quite as much as the regular Carbide size die. Works the brass a bit less.
Leo

[Captain*Kirk]

Pull one of the loose bullets and measure it with a micrometer. Almost sounds like the carbide crimp die is sizing the bullets down or though over crimping the case is buckling just enough to loosen up the neck tension.

FWIW:I check bullet diameter last night, mics out at .429 at the base. Just for snicks I took one of my prepped cases and inserted it into the FCD. Slips through the carbide ring all the way up to the crimp shoulder. So nothing still makes any sense. I have a few Hornady XTPs left with cannelure; I might try loading a dummy round and crimping with the FCD to see how it works on a cannelured bullet. If it works fine, I'll probably just use the FCD for bullets with a cannelure and continue roll crimping for plated bullets.
However, it still doesn't answer the question as to WHY this die doesn't work as advertised, especially since a number of you seem to be using it with plated bullets and have no issues.

If crimping the XTPs crushes the case, well...then I will consider it a defective die and sent it back to Lee.