The Poor Man's Hollow Point

[osteodoc08]

I wound up doing open chest heart massage on a GSW victim. Through and through the abdominal cavity rear to front entrance and exit wounds the same. When opened up found the inferior venecava utterly destroyed and a 2"+ tear in the aorta.

Traumatic arrests never live. Well 99+% don’t. Cardiac massage while heroic and great for movies, has never worked in my experience. That’s limited however as I don’t work in a Level 1 regional trauma center.

[pettypace]

I would like to know what the barrel-cylinder gap was on their 2-inch test gun, because their reported velocities are a full 100 fps less than I have measured with Winchester X38SPD 158-grain LHP +P FBI loads from my 2-inch S&W Model 10-5, which was set up by the Quantico gun vault with 0.003" pass/0.004" hold. My ammo is from the late 1980s and was issued to me. Perhaps they used commercial grade ammo which didn't meet LE specs.

I don't see any info on Lucky Gunner about the barrel/cylinder gap of their 2" test gun -- a Kimber K6s. But here's a link with some velocity data from guns they considered using: https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/r...barrel-length/

I'm pretty sure you're right that they used commercial grade ammo -- probably the same stuff they sell.

For what it's worth, they also tested the Federal LSWCHP. That didn't expand even from the 4" barrel at 900 ft/s.

[cwlongshot]

WXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT TOO!!!

When I read "Poor man's hollow point" I thought you were reversing hollow base wadcutter bullets and loading them into the cases. Those work pretty well even at low velocities. Anyway that was a popular way to get hollow points for 38 specials in the past. Since the bullets are reversed you can load the cartridges a little more hot than for target shooting too.

Tumbling bullets make horriffic wound channels. Its the unspoken preferance, in all methods, to cause maximum trauma.

CW

[JSnover]

WXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT TOO!!!

Tumbling bullets make horriffic wound channels. Its the unspoken preferance, in all methods, to cause maximum trauma.

CW

That surprises me. A friend of mine gave me an old box of .32 fmj that had all of the noses nipped/mutilated, like someone had taken a wire cutter to them. He didn't know anything about them, I assumed someone else was trying out the Poor Man's HP theory. This would have been in the 60s or 70s, I have no idea if they would have worked.
Wouldn't a non-expanding bullet be less predictable (and therefore less reliable) if it tumbled? The wound would be worse than normal SWC or FMJ but it seems like a non- tumbling expanded bullet would be more effective than either.

[Outpost75]

That surprises me. A friend of mine gave me an old box of .32 fmj that had all of the noses nipped/mutilated, like someone had taken a wire cutter to them. He didn't know anything about them, I assumed someone else was trying out the Poor Man's HP theory. This would have been in the 60s or 70s, I have no idea if they would have worked.
Wouldn't a non-expanding bullet be less predictable (and therefore less reliable) if it tumbled? The wound would be worse than normal SWC or FMJ but it seems like a non- tumbling expanded bullet would be more effective than either.

I have several file-trim dies which were intended to chop the noses off LRN service rounds in the .32 S&W Long, .38 S&W and .38 Special, which date pre-WW2. Apparently this was a common practice if "unofficial". The flat-nosed rounds penetrate straight through, without tumbling, and are more effective on small game and varmints than LRN. I have used these mostly to modify .38 Special 158 LRN loads, which results in reducing bullet weight to 146 grains with a 1/4 inch meplat. From a 2-inch snubby at about 700 fps they penetrate four 1-gallon water jugs and do not "flip."

I expect they would be a better manstopper too.

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[RED BEAR]

I have always liked very soft lead at reasonable velocity. Not sure why soft lead is recommended for bp only i don't get any leading at 700 to 800 fps. The walker pushed soft lead balls or bullets to 1300 fps .

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

From personal experience in the ER, I've seen plenty of through and through GSW with FMJ and if there is nothing vital hit (leg, arm, etc) they get an Rx for ABX and home. A good HP has always done more damage. Had a patient not too long ago that shot himself in the head with a 9mm FMJ. Through and through. Still talking........wouldn't of happened with a good HP.

but there are 3 possible outcomes that we are discussing. 1) bullet hits & expands. 2) bullet hits, doesn't expand, but tumbles. or 3) bullet hits and neither expands nor tumbles.

So in your observations are you comparing outcome 1 to outcome 3? I believe the OP is trying to compare 1 & 2.

If 2 produces an equal amount of tissue damage then the question is how to get it to do so reliably.

In my own experience I shot several .35 whelen loads and .357 mag. into wet newspaper. All mushroomed. A single .38 spl bullet passed through and put a hole in my plastic tub. Unfortunately I can't say whether it tumbled or not since I never recovered it.

[35remington]

When I said the shape of the wound channel would vary, I did indeed mean the depth at which the greater amount of damage was produced would vary. The gelatin showed that the full broad side attitude (BSA) of the tumbling bullet was reached further into the gelatin. This has the area of maximum tissue crush or gelatin effect.

Conversely, the expanding bullet will show that area of maximum damage closer to the entrance side.

What is arguable is whether tumbling can be reliably depended on, or whether it is reliable in actual human shootings as opposed to gelatin. I am not aware of reports wherein 158 SWCHP frequently overpenetrates, so whatever is going on it appears to work as intended in effectiveness and adequate penetration.

To get a reliably tumbling bullet probably requires some specific engineering of the bullet and velocity to make it more likely to occur, and even then there is no guarantee. It is also affected by the distance the bullet travels before it strikes. I was able to get a SAECO 475 grain bullet at 1200 fps to consistently tumble at close range in stacks of wet phone books (dense bear muscle stimulant, maybe) at what was bad breath bear shooting distance, but at 100 yards the same bullet would penetrate the whole three and a half foot stack, which is about a bazillion inches of gelatin equivalent.

With some exceptions due to the tissue travel stability of the bullet in question the gelatin/wet phone book ratio approximates 2:1. That is, I mean to say that a bullet that does 16 inches in gelatin does about half that in phone books. Phone books tend to overstate gelatin penetration somewhat when using that ratio if the bullet has impact stability issues....32 Smith and Wesson and 32 Long RN bullets, for instance.

I find their chronographed velocities for the load in question to be low as well. From my J frames I usually range from the low 800s to rarely near 850 fps depending upon manufacturer. I can exceed their chronographed factory Plus P velocities using standard pressure handloads using equivalent weight cast bullets.

For instances, 4.7 grains Unique, top end standard pressure, gets around 810 fps from my snobbies with a cast 158, at least when the powder is rearward or fairly near the primer end of the case.

[Walkingwolf]

I wish I had some experience with hunting ballistic gel animals, but I have rarely found one in the wild. OTH I have seen an example of through, and through with a broadhead, the burglar did not survive. If you put all your faith in hollow points into saving your bacon be prepared to get fried. IIRC the FBI agents in the Miami shootout were using hollow points.

[wv109323]

I followed a thread by a pathologist assistant that worked in Georgia's forenisic lab. They did an average of 8-9 autopsies a day. He had worked there for 15-20 years.
His observations were:
Ballistic gel is not a good representative for a bullets performance in a human body due to bones and different tissue.
Not all hollow points are created equal. If a hollow point fragmented it usually need to penetrate far enough to reach the vitals especially if it hit a bone. He favored a bullet to retain its weight to penetrate deeper.
Pistol bullets did not do hydra-shock damage.
He liked the heavier bullet weight for anything under .357 caliber.
Bullets had to reach the vital organs to stop an assault.
.38 specials were not a common caliber seen for autopsies. Most gang bangers used 9mm or .380. Most .38 were elderly suicides.
My opinion would be a 158 swc lead in a short barrel .38 special.
His quote was "it doesn't matter what you got, it depends where the bullet ends up at."
So bullet placement is everything.

[rfd]

... His quote was "it doesn't matter what you got, it depends where the bullet ends up at."
So bullet placement is everything.

particularly important for the marginal cartridges and the mental state of the threat(s).

[tbx-4]

For proper bullet testing you need a meat target...

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

actually if you want consistently reliable terminal ballistics at close range, go roundball. They are kind of like the fixed-blade broadhead of the firearm world. If a roundball doesn't flatten out at all, it will still hit pretty hard because the very same quality that makes them horrible for long range makes them pretty good terminal performers. That is, they decelerate rapidly. They decelerate through the atmosphere, and they decelerate through tissue.

[pettypace]

What is arguable is whether tumbling can be reliably depended on, or whether it is reliable in actual human shootings as opposed to gelatin. I am not aware of reports wherein 158 SWCHP frequently overpenetrates, so whatever is going on it appears to work as intended in effectiveness and adequate penetration.

Here's another example of failure to expand, no over-penetration, and tumbling: Federal 9mm 147 grain Hydra-Shok: https://www.luckygunner.com/9-mm-147...rounds#geltest

In this test, four of the five bullets failed to expand at all. Without expanding, these bullets should have penetrated over 30". But four of the five penetrated just less than 18", and at least two of those clearly swapped ends -- tumbled.

How much gel testing to you figure Federal did in developing the 147 grain Hydra-Shok ammo? It's hard to believe that Lucky Gunner's tests were the first to show a failure to expand. Is it possible that tumbling is a known failsafe mechanism preventing over-penetration in the event of failure to expand?

[pettypace]

actually if you want consistently reliable terminal ballistics at close range, go roundball. They are kind of like the fixed-blade broadhead of the firearm world. If a roundball doesn't flatten out at all, it will still hit pretty hard because the very same quality that makes them horrible for long range makes them pretty good terminal performers. That is, they decelerate rapidly. They decelerate through the atmosphere, and they decelerate through tissue.

If you're gonna go roundball, why stop at one? The .38 snubby can do two 000 bucks at about 1000 ft/sec. See: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...r-Self-Defense

[cat-mechanic]

I thought this thread would be about the Forster hollow point drill kits that are available.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...ow-pointer-1-8

For hollow points and self defense ammo, I have always stuck with loaded self defense ammo.

But I have been picking up some different HP bullets to try loading with. We will see how those go.

[trapper9260]

Typically, a clogged hollow point cavity results in the bullet failing to expand.

Ok thank you . Because I was that with some jacket rounds that they have the hollow point fill in and also read that at times when a hollow point enter that like denim that will clog the hole

[35remington]

I would not recommend two roundball in a 38 snubby at 1000 fps unless you are determined to exceed Plus P pressures. In a 357 chambered gun that is okay. In a 38 Special chambered gun best to slow down to a less gun straining speed.

Most bullets of pointed shape have a heavier end and a lighter end and will eventually flip in gelatin or tissue. This is most true of unexpanded hollowpoints and RN types. The question is whether the tumbling occurs soon enough and reliably enough that it can influence the wounding effect of the bullet. Some bullets penetrate a lot before tumbling, others not so much.

Many of the higher quality HP ammo types are not plugged by a reasonable amount of clothing and do well in testing.

[Bigslug]

I started a thread over on the muzzleloaders section asking some questions about various cap & ball revolvers. Someone was kind enough to post this little tidbit about gelatin testing with the mid-1800's options:

Attachment 239456

I think it worth noting that the .36 Navies and .44 Armies were penetrating to the top end of the 12"-18" the FBI currently considers the desirable depth range, and they were finishing out with pretty minimal expansion from initial diameter. These were both regarded as totally adequate for their time. Much of current conventional wisdom seems to hinge on the fact that depth of wound channel adds to wound volume, AND it contributes more toward intersecting something vital than width without penetration does.

Also worth noting that a tumbling pistol bullet is NOT a tumbling, fragmenting, travelling well in excess of 2000fps 5.56 round. The tissue will leisurely stretch and snap back and essentially leave a Wile E. Coyote shaped outline no bigger than the bullet itself.

Given that penetration is what the FBI is currently putting at the top of the priority list, and that penetration is what suffers with snubbies, I would be inclined toward either a toasty load behind a solid wadcutter, or a 158 grain JSP with a large flat meplat. - it'll penetrate plenty, but if it happens to mushroom, I'll take it. If it happens to tumble, I'll not expect much from it.

[GhostHawk]

Seems to me the clear answer is to carry the 4" with HP's.

Or be good enough with the short barrel to shoot em in the eye and not worry about expansion.

It is only a theory, but it is my theory that somebody shot in the eye is going to stop doing what he/she was doing and have new issues to deal with. That is if they are able to do anything at all.

Hopefully that theory never gets put to the test, by me at least.