The Poor Man's Hollow Point

[pettypace]

For the purpose of civilian self-defense with a handgun, let's say with a snub-nose revolver, does anyone see any practical difference between a bullet that expands and a bullet that "tumbles" -- assuming that both bullets penetrate into the FBI 12" - 18" standard?

To help focus the discussion, let's take a specific example. Here's a link to the Lucky Gunner web site and a ballistic gelatin test of Winchester Super-X 38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter HP ammunition :

https://www.luckygunner.com/38-speci...rounds#geltest

The ammunition was tested twice -- once from a 2-inch barrel revolver and once from a 4-inch barrel. There's a menu choice at the top of the page to pick which results you want to view.

If you look at results from the 4-inch barrel, you'll see that all five bullets expanded to about 0.50 caliber and all five bullets penetrated between 13" and 16" of ballistic gelatin.

Results from the 2-inch barrel show that none of the bullets expanded -- a total HP failure! Yet four of the five bullets flipped ends (tumbled, if you like) and penetrated the same 13" to 16" in the gel. The fifth bullet didn't expand or tumble and "over-penetrated" to 27" in the gel. We can disregard that "streaker" as having nothing to do with the question.

I'm guessing that there isn't any practical difference in self defense effectiveness between the bullets that expanded and those that tumbled. What do you think?

[35remington]

The early rate of deceleration may be higher for the expanded bullet. Overall wound volume would be similar but perhaps of different shape.

[osteodoc08]

From personal experience in the ER, I've seen plenty of through and through GSW with FMJ and if there is nothing vital hit (leg, arm, etc) they get an Rx for ABX and home. A good HP has always done more damage. Had a patient not too long ago that shot himself in the head with a 9mm FMJ. Through and through. Still talking........wouldn't of happened with a good HP.

[RED BEAR]

I agree that hollow points generally do more damage but at the velocity you get from a 2 inch barrel a lot do not expand so tumbling is better than nothing.

[OS OK]

Hit the target fast and don't be missing...let the Coroner worry about the fine points.

[stubshaft]

Like the Doc said "no vitals were hit"! Doesn't really make a difference if you don't hit your target properly.

[Froogal]

I just came in from shooting some .38+P 125 grain XTPs. Ruger SP101 2" barrel. At 10 yards and under I could hit the 12" steel target nearly every shot. Mild success out to about 15 yards. Beyond that was pure luck. I will be the first to admit that my hands are not as steady as they used to be. I guess if 5 rounds don't get the job done, I'll just throw the gun at the bad guy.

[FergusonTO35]

From personal experience in the ER, I've seen plenty of through and through GSW with FMJ and if there is nothing vital hit (leg, arm, etc) they get an Rx for ABX and home. A good HP has always done more damage. Had a patient not too long ago that shot himself in the head with a 9mm FMJ. Through and through. Still talking........wouldn't of happened with a good HP.

Out of curiosity, in how many of those cases can you say for sure what caliber and what type of bullet it was? Not trying to argue, just honestly wondering.

[pettypace]

The early rate of deceleration may be higher for the expanded bullet. Overall wound volume would be similar but perhaps of different shape.

Interesting point. That link has high speed video of the first shot from each test that confirms the earlier deceleration idea. Stepping slowly through those two videos, it seems clear that the expanding bullet causes lingering commotion in the gel in the 3 - 8" range while commotion from the tumbler is in the 5 - 11" range. So the wound volume is not only a different shape, but likely also in a different location.

[trapper9260]

May I ask had anyone fill the hollow point with silicone and dose it help it to expand faster and better.

[Outpost75]

I would like to know what the barrel-cylinder gap was on their 2-inch test gun, because their reported velocities are a full 100 fps less than I have measured with Winchester X38SPD 158-grain LHP +P FBI loads from my 2-inch S&W Model 10-5, which was set up by the Quantico gun vault with 0.003" pass/0.004" hold. My ammo is from the late 1980s and was issued to me. Perhaps they used commercial grade ammo which didn't meet LE specs.

[Outpost75]

I would like to know what the barrel-cylinder gap was on their 2-inch test gun. Their reported velocities are a full 100 fps less than I have measured with my lot of Winchester X38SPD 158-grain LHP +P FBI loads from my 2-inch S&W Model 10-5, which was set up by S&W factory trained gunsmiths to 0.003" pass/0.004" hold. My ammo is from the late 1980s.

[FergusonTO35]

Could simply be a matter of different barrel-cylinder gap, atmospheric temperature, powder lot, hardness of different batches of lead, etc. Published velocity, whether for factory ammo or load data, seldom matches up in real life. A lot of folks say that the FBI load has gotten more watered down over the years.

[curioushooter]

I've done some informal testing of snubbies in 38. Never had a problem getting expansion...but my velocities are running nearly at 9mm speeds.

I get the Speer 135 grain GDHP to 950 FPS out of my S&W 442 and my wife's 638. 6.7 grains of PowerPistol listed in the Hornady manual for 140 grainers. The Speer actually weighs closer to 131. I cut the load back to 6.5 grains since I learned that Alliant is 6.4 for the GDHP. Anyway...that gaping hole expands over 900 FPS in water and mud. Speer tested it in Real gel, not the clear gel LG uses, back in the 90s. I have a Gold Dot poster showing that bullet doing about as well as any 9mm through the barriers and clothing. The key I think is getting the needed velocity. It's probably the reason why most of the new 38 defense loads use flyweight bullets. I think the Speer is the best all around bullet made for snubbies right now. I'd certainly take it over any wadcutter, even if they tumbled.

For factory ammo that Federal HST with 130 grain bullet that is seated flush is very impressive on gel, but I find it hard to load into the chambers with speed strips or speed losders.

[jdfoxinc]

I wound up doing open chest heart massage on a GSW victim. Through and through the abdominal cavity rear to front entrance and exit wounds the same. When opened up found the inferior venecava utterly destroyed and a 2"+ tear in the aorta.

[Earlwb]

When I read "Poor man's hollow point" I thought you were reversing hollow base wadcutter bullets and loading them into the cases. Those work pretty well even at low velocities. Anyway that was a popular way to get hollow points for 38 specials in the past. Since the bullets are reversed you can load the cartridges a little more hot than for target shooting too.

[sniper]

My experiments with reversed hollow-based wadcutters resulted in most of them tumbling, leaving funny-lookin' holes in the targets at 25 yards. I much prefer 148-150 gr. full wadcutters, loaded to 7-850 fps. The full-caliber meplat of the wadcutters is very effective, and recoil is lessened, with 150-160 gr.semi-wadcutters and RNFP boolits my next favorites, loaded to 850-900 fps. YMMV.

[NyFirefighter357]

My experiments with reversed hollow-based wadcutters resulted in most of them tumbling, leaving funny-lookin' holes in the targets at 25 yards. I much prefer 148-150 gr. full wadcutters, loaded to 7-850 fps. The full-caliber meplat of the wadcutters is very effective, and recoil is lessened, with 150-160 gr.semi-wadcutters and RNFP boolits my next favorites, loaded to 850-900 fps. YMMV.

As I have learned in this forum slow heavy bullets kill and soft wide metplat bullets expand 160gr 10bhn-12bhn wad cutters.

[osteodoc08]

Out of curiosity, in how many of those cases can you say for sure what caliber and what type of bullet it was? Not trying to argue, just honestly wondering.

Many self inflicted or police find gun/casings at the scene and XR will clearly show profile of a FMJ if still in body.

[nicholst55]

May I ask had anyone fill the hollow point with silicone and dose it help it to expand faster and better.

Typically, a clogged hollow point cavity results in the bullet failing to expand.