Effects of Recoil on Accuracy

[newton]

A muzzle brake on a 243 pushing a 55 grain bullet at 4,000 FPS with 40 to 45 grains powder has significantly more recoil than a 22 long rifle. The powder has mass and is an ejectorate the same as the bullet and needs to be included in recoil calculations. Best example I can give is I have 2 identical Tikka 595 Master Sporter's with Krieger Barrels. They look like this one without the brake. http://www.tikkashooters.com/public_...tikks-595-6xc/

One is chambered in 6mm BR and the other is 240 NMC. Same scopes and mounts with a weight within 1/2 oz of each other. For the same velocity with the same bullet the 240 NMC uses about 10 grains more of the same powder. Recoil of the 240 NMC is noticeably more than the identical 6mm BR.

For prairie dogs I use brakes on .223, 6mm BR, 6mm XC, 243 and 6.5 x 284. The .223 is used the most and the most used of my 223's is an AR with 28" heavy weight Krieger barrel with the gas port extend out two inches. Using 40 grain Nosler Ballistic tips or Hornady V-Max I am getting 3,800 FPS. I have lead in the stock and total weight is 14 1/2". The brake does prevent the muzzle jump enough that self spotting impacts is easy, however, recoil is still significantly more than than my 11 pound 22 lr target rifle. Same weight bullets but about 25 grains more powder with three times the velocity. Very curious how your recoil calculator claims about the same as a 22LR for an even heavier bullet with more powder?????????

Apples to orange for the style and type of rifle but my 6mm XC using 55 grain bullet recoils more than the AR but it should since it using 12 grains more powder, 15 grain bullet and an additional 200 or 250 FPS.

Your premise that recoil in and of itself decreases accuracy in flat wrong. Recoil does introduce additional variables that if not dealt with effectively will change point of impact or open up groups. No surprise there. Same for an improperly fitting stock.

You seem very impressed with rail guns. Have you ever shot one? Seen one in person?

Rail guns actually disprove your case since they remove the recoil induced human influences. Rail guns don't care if is a 22 PPC or a 50 Cal BMG. The most accurate of the rail guns are the Militaries artillery pieces. If recoil was the only issue they would be the least accurate.

Rail guns are not a given to win the classes. Check out the light and heavy gun aggs. verse the rails guns.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/light-varmint/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/rail-gun/

Recoil is the main thing that decreases accuracy. It’s the recoils effect on rifle movement. Yes, the human factor is what determines how that recoil effects accuracy. I have never discounted that. Don’t get hung up on what I’m not saying.

It’s the human ability to control recoil. Again, I’ve said it over and over, it’s about how recoil is controlled. My premise is not on recoil itself, never has been, it’s the ability of the human to control it. Recoil effects gun movement. More recoil, more gun movement.

Let’s keep it simple. Given all things equal but gun weight, does a lighter gun move more under recoil than a heavier one? Again, given ALL other things equal.

Since a lighter gun moves more, is it harder or easier to control something that moves more or something that moves less?

No need to complicate things. Remember, ALL things equal except for gun weight.

[M-Tecs]

Recoil is the main thing that decreases accuracy.

If recoil is decreasing you accuracy you are doing something inconsistently. Yes you may not notice it as much with lesser recoil but the inconsistence is still present. Some of these inconsistencies also show up will air rifles and 22 rimfires due to the longer barrel time. Shoot some three positions matches with these if you are a non-believer. Bottom line is if you need a light recoiling high velocity heavy rifle to shoot well you really need to learn proper technique.

The current extreme long range rifles are chambered in various 338, 375 and 408 cartridge. All of these have significant recoil and benchrest level accuracy.

https://elrteam.com/world-record-3-mile-shot

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...e-competition/

https://www.accurateshooter.com/tech...-allen-magnum/

https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns...c-for-2-miles/

https://www.accurateshooter.com/shoo...at-2300-yards/

http://www.davidtubb.com/index.php?r...download_id=46

[newton]

If recoil is decreasing you accuracy you are doing something inconsistently.

Bingo!

I think you might be starting to see the point. Yes, I was doing something inconsistently. I was not consistently controlling recoil.

[Bama]

Ransom rest?

[Three44s]

IMO, recoil affects accuracy at several levels.

Note the rifles in the above linked videos. Those big honkin’ shooting irons are also “breaked”.

Three44s

[bmortell]

any example of a small or large caliber shooting well is anecdotal, theres uncountable variables between it and any other gun shooting, especially if you attach a human.

in order for something that moves more to actually have no more variation you would need god level control of variables and understanding of physics.

you will not achieve that.

if a 50bmg shoots a better group than a .222 its because there's 500 variables it did worse in and 700 it did better at, in that individual case.
you cant claim it didn't do worse cause more recoil don't matter.

debating it as what random people can do with x gun while floating god knows how many variables , instead of a physics concept "does more motion cause more variation" is kinda silly

[Three44s]

TThis is an interesting thread, I Thank member newton for kicking it off and sticking with it.

Imagine this, newton and recoil, who’d a thunk it?

I found the video of the Aussie interesting. I never thought of videoing myself shooting. Can be useful.

I am going to call the claim that a break has no effect before the projectile exits the muzzle. It certainly is less than post exit but if we want to throw very long range into the discussion, then the flash of air ahead of a speeding bullet has some effect hitting a break.

I want to call out the practice of using a bipod on the hood of a vehicle. I have done some fair long range coyote shooting off the hood of a rig but never waste my time with a bipod there. For that I use the home made equivalent of the bulls bag or butterfly bag.

A vehicle hood is way too springy for decent shooting with a bipod.

Holding the scope. I have done it in the past but disfavor it because it is difficult to duplicate for each and every shot.

I am more into free recoil and pinching the rear bag to center the cross hairs. A gun that truely kicks gets only enough shoulder resistance as is necessary. Cheek weld is just about non existent. With a good trigger, I pinch the shot (do not hold the grip) unless recoil dictates more stock pressure.

A rifle shoots where it “wants to”. You bet! If you are “pushin’ your rifle into a strained position you are defeating yourself. I sweet talk a rifle into resting nearly dead on and then squeezing the rear bag gently to the aim point.

Lock time. That is the time between trigger break and the striking of the primer. The king of this out of the box is the discontinued Rem 788. My bestest favorite coyote wackin’ machine was a 788 in 22-250 wearing a Canjar single set trigger until the barrel went south. I still have it and it deserves being resurrected.

Lead sleds. I have a hard time dragging one along while hunting so I don’t use them.

Anyway those are my old grumpy ways and thoughts

Three44s

[samari46]

Case in point. Shooting some PPU serbian 7.62x54r in a M44 carbine will get your attention but shoot a lyman 314299 at 1600fps is a ***** cat and better accuracy to boot. 30-06 levels of recoil like in my Sako 75 hunter is easy for me. But stoke up some warmish loads in 45/70 for my Ruger #1 is another story. Cast bullets nice and gentle. 300 grain JHP's at 2000 fps is a whole nother story. Frank

[M-Tecs]

Anyone that shoots 3 position air rifle or smallbore understand that it literally takes years to master position shooting and proper sight picture.

For NRA Highpower across the course and long range you add wind reading to the items above. Wind reading also takes years to master.

Same for F-class

Not so much for 100 and 200 yard bench rest but for 300 yard and beyond wind reading wins or loses most matches.

Any of these disciplines require years of dedication and many thousands of rounds down range to master the game.

In most cases you can learn proper recoil management for rifles in 20 minutes with proper instruction. Recoil management is just about the easiest of the variable to master. Same for handguns. Admittedly it may take a couple of hours more but proper recoil management is the easiest of the variables that effect accuracy at the target. The exception is flinching. That is vary hard to over come. Flinching can be from recoil but most people flinch more from concussion than the actual recoil.

Recoil is truly one of the least significant factors to overcome to be a competent shooter.

[newton]

Anyone that shoots 3 position air rifle or smallbore understand that it literally takes years to master position shooting and proper sight picture.

For NRA Highpower across the course and long range you add wind reading to the items above. Wind reading also takes years to master.

Same for F-class

Not so much for 100 and 200 yard bench rest but for 300 yard and beyond wind reading wins or loses most matches.

Any of these disciplines require years of dedication and many thousands of rounds down range to master the game.

In most cases you can learn proper recoil management for rifles in 20 minutes with proper instruction. Recoil management is just about the easiest of the variable to master. Same for handguns. Admittedly it may take a couple of hours more but proper recoil management is the easiest of the variables that effect accuracy at the target. The exception is flinching. That is vary hard to over come. Flinching can be from recoil but most people flinch more from concussion than the actual recoil.

Recoil is truly one of the least significant factors to overcome to be a competent shooter.

I suppose I am just an incompetent newbie to the world of shooting then.

I have no issues with flinching(with the guns I shoot), I take my time setting up behind the gun and control my breathing, I even wait for wind to die down when I am trying to shoot groups(but I will never say I am a master at reading it), I have tried to do every thing I can to eliminate the human factor when IÂ’m testing loads.

But alas, I never thought much of controlling recoil. I always thought it was the least significant of things as long as it did not effect how I shot the gun.

Then just the other day I wondered what might happen if I started controlling the recoil of my light weight guns. Hey, what a coincidence, it actually tightened up my groups. Go figure. Guess a blind squirrel gets an acorn every now and then.

Mtecs, sometimes itÂ’s the little things in life that cause the biggest headache for us. My wife has given birth a few times so you think that a tiny splinter would not be a big issue for her. Yet, sometimes it is.

I started the thread specifically, in this forum, to address how recoil can effect the movement of the barrel more on a lightweight gun than a heavy one - thereby effecting accuracy. I fully understand that there are a ton of other things that can effect accuracy, those things are variables I was leaving out purposefully because they are not a part of this gun weight equation.

Do you agree that given ALL things equal, other than gun weight, a lighter gun moves more under recoil than a heavier one?

Do you agree that if the barrel moves up or down, side to side, from where it was when you first pulled the trigger, then the bullet will not impact where you were aiming?

Given ALL things equal, other than gun movement under recoil, is it plausible that a gun that moves less is easier to control and keep from moving in any other direction than straight back?

See, no need to complicate things, these are really simple questions that I had, and when I started answering them myself, I realized something I had never done before about recoil.

[newton]

TThis is an interesting thread, I Thank member newton for kicking it off and sticking with it.

Imagine this, newton and recoil, who’d a thunk it?

I found the video of the Aussie interesting. I never thought of videoing myself shooting. Can be useful.

I am going to call the claim that a break has no effect before the projectile exits the muzzle. It certainly is less than post exit but if we want to throw very long range into the discussion, then the flash of air ahead of a speeding bullet has some effect hitting a break.

I want to call out the practice of using a bipod on the hood of a vehicle. I have done some fair long range coyote shooting off the hood of a rig but never waste my time with a bipod there. For that I use the home made equivalent of the bulls bag or butterfly bag.

A vehicle hood is way too springy for decent shooting with a bipod.

Holding the scope. I have done it in the past but disfavor it because it is difficult to duplicate for each and every shot.

I am more into free recoil and pinching the rear bag to center the cross hairs. A gun that truely kicks gets only enough shoulder resistance as is necessary. Cheek weld is just about non existent. With a good trigger, I pinch the shot (do not hold the grip) unless recoil dictates more stock pressure.

A rifle shoots where it “wants to”. You bet! If you are “pushin’ your rifle into a strained position you are defeating yourself. I sweet talk a rifle into resting nearly dead on and then squeezing the rear bag gently to the aim point.

Lock time. That is the time between trigger break and the striking of the primer. The king of this out of the box is the discontinued Rem 788. My bestest favorite coyote wackin’ machine was a 788 in 22-250 wearing a Canjar single set trigger until the barrel went south. I still have it and it deserves being resurrected.

Lead sleds. I have a hard time dragging one along while hunting so I don’t use them.

Anyway those are my old grumpy ways and thoughts

Three44s

Have you ever had a rifle like to jump at the shot? If so, how did you deal with that aspect?

Really, when I think about it, it is only my 7lb and under rifles that jump. Of course, those are the ones I have been messing with for the last few years.

[Norske]

Heavier rifles are much easier to hold steady than light rifles, according to this man who has a Ruger Ultralight 257 Roberts as well as an older standard weight one. Bullet strike is influenced by stock pressure against the shoulder and even cheek pressure on the comb noticeably with a light rifle. I've also learned that recoil has a big effect on where the bullets strike when shooting off sandbags. My 30-06 typically shoots 3" higher off bags than when hand held. It's bouncing off the bag from recoil, proven because my 338WM exhibits a 6" difference at 100 yards. Both shoot like they are hand held if a rolled-up sleeping bag is used as a rest. Those old photos of 10# WW1 rifles moving a half inch before the bullet left the muzzle are for real.

[Three44s]

newton,

I would suggest that there are a lot of variables in addition to the weight and balance of the rifle and the cartridge being fired. The stock design and whether a rifle is checkered and what the shooting bag is made of. Add the way you nestle your forend into say a butter fly bag or merely rest it on top of the “V”.

Where you place the front bag in relation to the fore end matters as well.

My big gig if you will is coyotes. I try to do my load development with as little variations as possible. And yes with enough cartridge and as little interference from me upon firing I can get to the point where I have to hold a particular rifle as it would otherwise hurt me. I might resort to a Past shoulder recoil pad (worn by the shooter) but a Limb Saver usually gets installed first.

Much of my shooting is fairly close, say 225 yds and less. There I do not strive for as much control of the shooting conditions as time to set up just is not on your side. As I get towards 300 yds and farther I am either going to take the time to get my bags out (at least the front butter fly) and if the coyote is too skittish I will just pass for a better set of conditions.

Three44s

[Three44s]

Heavier rifles are much easier to hold steady than light rifles, according to this man who has a Ruger Ultralight 257 Roberts as well as an older standard weight one. Bullet strike is influenced by stock pressure against the shoulder and even cheek pressure on the comb noticeably with a light rifle. I've also learned that recoil has a big effect on where the bullets strike when shooting off sandbags. My 30-06 typically shoots 3" higher off bags than when hand held. It's bouncing off the bag from recoil, proven because my 338WM exhibits a 6" difference at 100 yards. Both shoot like they are hand held if a rolled-up sleeping bag is used as a rest. Those old photos of 10# WW1 rifles moving a half inch before the bullet left the muzzle are for real.

Bingo!

Though I have fired a 375 H&H only free standing I understand they are very prone to jump away from a firm rest.

The video of the Aussie firing a rifle in this thread has taught me a new trick that I will use in the future.

Three44s

[Lloyd Smale]

have to agree. IF you an shoot a hard recoiling gun insuring your not flinching and are letting the gun recoil the exact same every time I doubt it effects a thing. It might be a very slight issue because there is more recoil and that does take more consentration to shoot consistently. handguns more so. They are very dependent on a consistant grip and follow through.

Some people can handle recoil better than others i don't agree that lighter recoiling guns are more accurate. The best way to help you to stop flinching is to let someone else load an unknown quantity of ammo and work the action on non semi auto guns. You will quickly see if you are flinching when you pull the trigger and nothing happens but a flintch. You know snipers use the 338 and the browning 50 two more recoiling guns i can't think of. Doing this little trick at the range with other people around taught me not to flinch with heavy recoiling guns. My old shoulders don't let me shoot them much anymore.

[newton]

have to agree. IF you an shoot a hard recoiling gun insuring your not flinching and are letting the gun recoil the exact same every time I doubt it effects a thing. It might be a very slight issue because there is more recoil and that does take more consentration to shoot consistently. handguns more so. They are very dependent on a consistant grip and follow through.

What do you mean by “letting the gun recoil the exact same”?

[Texas by God]

It seems to me that the fact that there is NO recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel has been ignored here. If your hold is good when that happens,you did your part-whether the gun weighs 5 or ten pounds.

[newton]

It seems to me that the fact that there is NO recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel has been ignored here. If your hold is good when that happens,you did your part-whether the gun weighs 5 or ten pounds.

I suppose you probably didn’t read through the whole thing. . I understand.

This is what I was lead to believe when I first started shooting. However, it’s been proven many times over that recoil starts the moment the bullet starts moving forward.

Every action has opposite and equal reaction. The action that moves the bullet forward is the same one that causes an opposite reaction.

I should add, the control of this opposite reaction is what the thread was intended to talk about. The fact that weight reduces recoil force is secondary only to the point that reducing recoil helps the shooter control it easier.

[Texas by God]

I'm not doubting your work but who among us is sensitive enough to feel recoil before the bullet exits? Yes, heavier guns in a given chambering are usually easier to shoot well. I used to shoot elephant rifles and fired several sub moa groups with .375H&H and .458- just not many in one setting. I would agree that anticipating recoil affects YOUR accuracy if you let it. Recoil or rifle weight have nothing to do with a rifles accuracy.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[M-Tecs]

Barrels, scope mounts, stocks and receivers flex from the various forces they are subjected to when fired. Same for the firearm moving before the bullet exits. None of this a an issue until inconsistency are introduced. Anything that makes any of these movements inconsistent will effect point of impact. The movement is not the problem. Inconsistency is.

is.