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Thread: Effects of Recoil on Accuracy

  1. #41
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinMN View Post
    Which is why the shooting sling I mentioned earlier is used. It increases the mass of the rifle, by the mass of whatever part of the human body it is connected to. Meaning, that if you have the rifle well fastened to more of the shooter, then more of the mass is able to deal with the effects of the recoil. If the rifle weights 8# & your slinged arm to rifle weighs an additional 8#, plus the "bracing" effect using the sling, then the combined is 16#. Spreading the the felt recoil as well as reducing its' effect, while keeping the rifle in relatively the same position as well.

    I will bow out now & let the rest of you continue. I seem to be focusing on one part of the recoil subject, while it seems the rest of ya'll are on another. Better to just "shut up & listen(read)", I reckon. Sometimes, folks say that is "the best way to learn.", (but actually doing something & gaining experience is a good way to learn too, IMO.)
    LOL

    HAve fun!
    Thanks for your input. When I was researching the one place I got the most useful information from really stressed sling usage also. So I definitely see it’s use in this manner and your on point with it’s effect. It is a great tool to control recoil. I plan to play with it some myself, but the majority of my shooting is done without it so I focused more on control with the hand method seeing how most guns I shoot for accuracy wear scopes.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    I see this thread as discussing an aspect of “mechanical accuracy”, barrel movement while the projectile is still in the barrel. If you want to use a 50 BMG to test with, you need 2 rifles the same other than weight, that is the OPs variable. My take is a rifle with a better moment of inertia will shoot better than another identical with less. Same weight different distribution. A heavy barrel will move with slower acceleration, movement than a lighter. A shorter barrel gets the bullet clear of the barrel quicker. A short heavy barrel helps reduces movement before exit better than a longer and/or lighter barrel in the same overall weight rifle. If you put a bloop type on that short heavy barrel with even more mass farther to the front, even better, it just has to be clear of the bullet. A hard recoiling light hunting rifle will shoot better bench groups, and Maybe even be close when shot from a field position, if you hold on to the fore end. A dedicated target rifle in 222 or equil is a different animal.
    That’s exactly what I am presenting. Thanks.

    Controlling recoil is nothing more or less than controlling any other tool a person uses to do a job with. Sometimes we don’t view a gun like a tool, sometimes we do. But in its basic form and function it is a tool. To learn to control it like any other mechanical tool is a good thing and not to be taken lightly unless your not concerned with how it can best function.

    Sometimes guns are just fun things. Not so much used to produce the perfect end result of a tight group, but rather just to enjoy the feel and sound of it. I enjoy that aspect from time to time, but other times I want to get the best mechanical ability from it. With my newfound knowledge I can better use the ‘tool’ to get the results I want.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master Shopdog's Avatar
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    On light'ish factory bolt rifles,shooting cast..... comparing,we'll say small(223),medium (6/7mm),and large(30,35).

    If you get a chance,try back to back tests...same gun/load/day... try a full on BR setup with moderately "hard" bags vs a "Buds" bag(those soft V shaped bags). As the calibre goes up,you should start to see a pattern in how the torque makes the rig "jump" more,using hard bags. It's just more pronounced the bigger the bore. This doesn't mean you "can't"( ripoff tight 30'06 groups).... it means probability. Now look at how the softer,one bag V setup smooths out the system.

    The next test,same everything is.... watch,with both styles of rests(above) how changing the forend hold down pressure effects the group.

    Stock "balance" issues mostly show up as vertical,so look into that. It can get as complex as you're willing to go? For instance,the shore #'s of this bedding compound vs that. And as posted above,triggers and all their "faults" don't make things better, there's a direct connection physically AND mentally on them opening groups up. Further,learn to shoot...110% concentration with 3 shot groups first..... then 5 shot. Any further and you're losing probability,ON LIGHT FACTORY RIGS. Again,dosen't mean "can't"... just that you are off the reservation considering the intent of the rig.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    When time allows, which will most likely not be for a few weeks or more, I am going to do testing. I have a rest that I can use, but I will have to modify it allow the gun to freely recoil without falling on the ground.

    I'll take the same gun, whichever one I have that lets me get the but pad off easiest, shoot it and then repeat with however much weight I can get into the stock. I'll even take some slow-motion video of the shots just to see and compare. Should be interesting and fun.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinMN View Post
    Something to share regarding the topic that some may be interested in, if they have not come across it before:
    https://archive.org/details/Hatchers_Notebook/page/n260

    Hatchers Notebook

    By Maj. Gen. J. Hatcher

    Notably, the following chapters:

    Chapter XI

    Block that Kick - Some Observations on Recoil

    Starts on page 253 of the book, but page 262 of the link.


    And...

    Chapter XII

    The Theory of Recoil

    Starts on page 279 of the book, but page 288 of the link.

    Enjoy! if ya like.
    Thanks! Looking forward to reading it.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    I learned a lot by watching Mark and Sam videos. Here is the most recent one posted on youtube (actually a rerun) I think Mark has a gift of being able to explain these things with a simple logical perspective...
    Great video.

    I was talking with my coworker yesterday about all of this. He brought up muzzle brakes and I had to contemplate it for a while. Then all of a sudden it made perfect sense to me.

    Might sound very simple, but a muzzle brake is just that - a brake. What is it braking? It's braking recoil velocity. When it slows that down, it is effectively doing the same thing that additional mass does, it makes the recoil more controlable.

    I used to look at them for recoil reduction simply to help ease the pounding on the shoulder. That's how I always saw them because generally, you do not see them on anything but large calibers. But, as was shown in this video, its not just about easing pain on the shoulder, its about controlling the recoil, which in turn makes it easier to control the gun.

    Think about it in this case. The gun was a .243 which was shooting 55gr bullets. Figure that into a recoil calculator and depending on the gun weight you're looking at just about 6lbs - 7lbs of recoil force. That is, even without the muzzle brake, about equivelant to what a 22lr is. However, with the muzzle brake, the recoil velocity is further reduced, and it becomes even more controlable.

  7. #47
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    Muzzle brake operates on the gasses exiting BEHIND the bullet at high pressure. Cannot affect the barrel movement while the bullet is in the barrel, the bullet is already gone.. It will affect the “shoot ability” and there fore group size due to the effect recoil has on the shooter. A tight sling increases the effective mass of the front of the rifle. If I was going to add weight to measure the recoil influence on the bullet, I would weight the fore end. Using the accessory rail on a match rifle or sling swivel stud, ore the cheese grater stuff on an AR 10. Actually that is a really good use for that... never mind off topic.
    Last edited by rking22; 04-05-2019 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Additional thought
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  8. #48
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    If it has been your experience that you an get away with bad technique with a rifle that recoils less then thats good for you. But why would you ever knowingly use bad technique especially in a match this doesn't make any sense to me. As far as a lot of us bad technique is just plain bad technique.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RED BEAR View Post
    If it has been your experience that you an get away with bad technique with a rifle that recoils less then thats good for you. But why would you ever knowingly use bad technique especially in a match this doesn't make any sense to me. As far as a lot of us bad technique is just plain bad technique.
    Define “bad technique”.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    Muzzle brake operates on the gasses exiting BEHIND the bullet at high pressure. Cannot affect the barrel movement while the bullet is in the barrel, the bullet is already gone.. It will affect the “shoot ability” and there fore group size due to the effect recoil has on the shooter. A tight sling increases the effective mass of the front of the rifle. If I was going to add weight to measure the recoil influence on the bullet, I would weight the fore end. Using the accessory rail on a match rifle or sling swivel stud, ore the cheese grater stuff on an AR 10. Actually that is a really good use for that... never mind off topic.
    I would say the majority does, but there is some gas that supersedes bullet exit.

    Additionally, by keeping the barrel recoiling straight back, the gassed exiting the barrel are less likely to react on the base of the bullet as it leaves. Much like a bad crown does, a barrels lateral movement can effect the bullet just outside of the barrel by how it directs gasses.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by RED BEAR View Post
    If it has been your experience that you an get away with bad technique with a rifle that recoils less then thats good for you. But why would you ever knowingly use bad technique especially in a match this doesn't make any sense to me. As far as a lot of us bad technique is just plain bad technique.
    Up until about 10 years for NRA Highpower competition you started from standing than went into postion when the targets came up. For setting rapids at 200 yards you had 60 seconds to go from standing to sitting, fire either two or five rounds, do a mag change or stripper clip load, scope conditions and fire the remaining 5 or 8 rounds. For the 300 yard prone rapids you had 70 seconds to do the same. Service rifles fired 2 and 8 and match rifles fired 5 and 5. The Service Rifle loading is based on the 8 round EN block clip for the Garand. The time limit doesn't always allow you to build a perfect position or gun mount. That is the same for various competitions, hunting or self defense. The goal is to have a perfect postion and gun mount every time but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. When that happens the lighter recoiling AR .223 is more forgiving for a less than perfect gun mount or position than the heavier recoiling 308 M14.

    It's no different from the bench. One of my 223 bolt guns is almost identical to my 375 H&H in weight, style and accuracy. They both hold 1/2 MOA at 300 meters. The difference is the 223 will better tolerate a slightly different cheek pressure, shoulder pressure or placement. Do the same with the 375 H&H and the groups open up.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-05-2019 at 06:00 PM.
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  12. #52
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    Bad technique? I would say that everyone has a technique that serves them best anything that doesn't comply with that is bad technique. There are some accepted technique that are taught as far as shooting stance trigger control ect. Differentiating from them is bad technique. It was said in an earlier post that a competitor wasn't effected by bad technique as much when using a small caliber gun vs a full power. I am just not sure i buy it. But if so why would you ever use bad technique in a match.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RED BEAR View Post
    . But if so why would you ever use bad technique in a match.
    I take it you have never shot competitively with time limits like described in post 51?

    http://www.6mmbr.com/highpowerbasics.html

    My definition of "bad technique" is anything that you change or vary from shot to shot. It could be something minor like slightly more or less cheek pressure or the buttstock placed an 1/8 differently into the shoulder. It also includes things like shooting from a leadsled off a bench and than expecting same point of impact when shooting leaning over the truck hood, bipod, tripod or anything other position.

    Back to Highpower. Across the cross is normally shot at 200, 300 and 600 yards. Due to weather or distance limitations they also have reduced courses of fire that all stages are shot all at one distance. 200 yards this the most common but they also do 100 yards and 300 yards. For reduced courses I have mostly shot 200 yards. My standing, sitting and prone positions all required a slightly different zero for the same distance since the gun recoils differently for each postion.

    My Dad is left handed. We shoot a lot of prairie dogs. Mostly from RCBS R.A.S.S. rests. I am right handed. If I use his .223 rifle I need 1 1/4 MOA windage correction. This happens with other rifles also but I don't have hard numbers for those.

    Three years ago a buddy was drawn for a moose tag. He hunted moose and elk in the 70s and 80's with his 300 Weatherby Mag. He is now over 70 and it was kicking the snot out of him so he purchased a leadsled for load development and sighting in. Sighted in on the leadsled he was shooting about 1 moa groups. For hunting he planned on using Bog-Pod tripod. With Bog-Pod tripod he could still shoot 1 MOA groups but point of impact was 8 inches different at 200 yards. Sighting in only with the leadsled on not confirming POI with other rests or postition is bad technique.


    This is a video of shooter shooting sitting rapids for a CMP vintage match. They have 10 more seconds in vintage.

    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-05-2019 at 05:57 PM.
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  14. #54
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    I started to say no one chooses to use bad technique, but I coach and compete in skeet, and many make that choice. Nevertheless, ‘M-Tecs gave the answer, it isn’t necessarily a choice, it happens on occasion. Ever stump your toe, why did you chose to do that? Lighter recoiling for arms are easier to shoot well, more forgiving is a good thing.
    Newton, that slight amount of air leading the bullet is inadequate to make a measurable effect. You did the math for dwell time in the barrel, use that same math to measure dwell time at the muzzle. Yes it will be a factor in the aspect you asked about, but minuscule. Barrel dwell time and movement of the barrel during that time is the topic correct? Comfort to the shooter and other issues related are too many variables. Imagine shooting a group with a free floated Kimber 308 , 165 gr normal velocity. Now pull that barrelded action from the 6# gun and weld it to a Cat D9. Trigger another group. Now you have compared gun mass. That group from the D9 May be bigger, that says another variable is at work. Perhaps that light barrel needs some flexibility in it’s support? Now that means the better(more consistent) shooter will do better with it than a solid machine rest(D9)
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  15. #55
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    The question should have nothing to do with people, without that variable gone youd have a physics question that never gets anywhere.

    If the gun was a physically perfect 1 piece object fired in intergalactic space, you might get close to a situation where more movement dont equal more variation, but even then if you think you got it its probably because you lack the ability to find every factor and smallest variation and measure it.

    Shooting a real gun on earth is more like driving a 500 dollar truck over a speed bump a different speeds, if you dont think hitting it at higher speeds causes more variables to come into play.. Then i have no idea what to say to you

  16. #56
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    Your right i have never shot competition. As such i will accept your point. I have also never shot a caliber as small as 223 except 22 lr and i do mean never. So my experience with such things is limited at best. Your definition of bad technique is somewhat more strict than mine. I was thinking of a bad stance not cheek pressure. As i said i will bow to your superior knowledge on this. Well you really can learn an old dog something new.

  17. #57
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    One thing High power shooters do and it helps with control in other shooting is to Get a natural point of aim ( npoa). This is where in position the rifle used no muscle to hold on target. You can close your eyes relax open your eyes and be on target. With the npoa the rifle recoils back and up settling back to 6 oclock on the bull. A good position and relaxed form allows this to happen. recoil becomes very consistent. When shooting the 30 calibers in high power a poor position could result in cross fires do to being "pushed" around.
    The same with bench shooting a position that uses as little muscle as possible to hold the rifle on target. Some Powder their bags with talc to maintain the same recoil of the rifle.

  18. #58
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    RULE OF THUMB...not "scientific" but provable...You shoot best with what kicks you least!

  19. #59
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    Newton, that slight amount of air leading the bullet is inadequate to make a measurable effect. You did the math for dwell time in the barrel, use that same math to measure dwell time at the muzzle. Yes it will be a factor in the aspect you asked about, but minuscule. Barrel dwell time and movement of the barrel during that time is the topic correct? Comfort to the shooter and other issues related are too many variables. Imagine shooting a group with a free floated Kimber 308 , 165 gr normal velocity. Now pull that barrelded action from the 6# gun and weld it to a Cat D9. Trigger another group. Now you have compared gun mass. That group from the D9 May be bigger, that says another variable is at work. Perhaps that light barrel needs some flexibility in itÂ’s support? Now that means the better(more consistent) shooter will do better with it than a solid machine rest(D9)
    I was just focused on just the bullet in the barrel dwell time until the topic of muzzle brakes came up and it made me think some more.

    The whole premise does revolve around the barrels influence on the bullet. However, one thing I did not bring into mind at first is that the barrel still effects a bullets path for a split second after it leaves. The gasses traveling behind the bullet do keep on effecting the bullet until their velocity slows to less that the bullets.

    So in effect, much like you can steer a ballon with your breath, the muzzle direction of travel still influences the bullet after it leaves. This is widely known by way of how the muzzle crown can effect accuracy.

    If the muzzle does nothing but move straight back then there is no influence but straight forward on the bullet. But even after the bullet has left, if the barrel is moving in any direction but straight back, then it effects it for a given distance.

    What that distance is I have no idea. But when dealing with ballistics we must not think that even the smallest of changes are translated to large outcomes further out. IÂ’m sure that a person could figure the distance with math. But just a simple slow motion video of bullets leaving the muzzle will show you that it is probably close to an inch sometimes.

    That most likely all depends on powder and charge.

    Now, as far as taking the barrel action and moving it from one place to another then yes, things will change. I think itÂ’s taking my example too far. IÂ’m not talking about eliminating recoil, IÂ’m talking about controlling it.

    Every action will have an equal and opposite reaction. If you eliminate the guns recoil, then you simple transfer that action to another form. Again, IÂ’ll bring up rail guns, they donÂ’t eliminate recoil, they control it. ThatÂ’s what makes them super accurate.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by newton View Post
    Think about it in this case. The gun was a .243 which was shooting 55gr bullets. Figure that into a recoil calculator and depending on the gun weight you're looking at just about 6lbs - 7lbs of recoil force. That is, even without the muzzle brake, about equivelant to what a 22lr is. However, with the muzzle brake, the recoil velocity is further reduced, and it becomes even more controlable.
    A muzzle brake on a 243 pushing a 55 grain bullet at 4,000 FPS with 40 to 45 grains powder has significantly more recoil than a 22 long rifle. The powder has mass and is an ejectorate the same as the bullet and needs to be included in recoil calculations. Best example I can give is I have 2 identical Tikka 595 Master Sporter's with Krieger Barrels. They look like this one without the brake. http://www.tikkashooters.com/public_...tikks-595-6xc/

    One is chambered in 6mm BR and the other is 240 NMC. Same scopes and mounts with a weight within 1/2 oz of each other. For the same velocity with the same bullet the 240 NMC uses about 10 grains more of the same powder. Recoil of the 240 NMC is noticeably more than the identical 6mm BR.

    For prairie dogs I use brakes on .223, 6mm BR, 6mm XC, 243 and 6.5 x 284. The .223 is used the most and the most used of my 223's is an AR with 28" heavy weight Krieger barrel with the gas port extend out two inches. Using 40 grain Nosler Ballistic tips or Hornady V-Max I am getting 3,800 FPS. I have lead in the stock and total weight is 14 1/2". The brake does prevent the muzzle jump enough that self spotting impacts is easy, however, recoil is still significantly more than than my 11 pound 22 lr target rifle. Same weight bullets but about 25 grains more powder with three times the velocity. Very curious how your recoil calculator claims about the same as a 22LR for an even heavier bullet with more powder?????????

    Apples to orange for the style and type of rifle but my 6mm XC using 55 grain bullet recoils more than the AR but it should since it using 12 grains more powder, 15 grain bullet and an additional 200 or 250 FPS.

    Your premise that recoil in and of itself decreases accuracy in flat wrong. Recoil does introduce additional variables that if not dealt with effectively will change point of impact or open up groups. No surprise there. Same for an improperly fitting stock.

    You seem very impressed with rail guns. Have you ever shot one? Seen one in person?

    Rail guns actually disprove your case since they remove the recoil induced human influences. Rail guns don't care if is a 22 PPC or a 50 Cal BMG. The most accurate of the rail guns are the Militaries artillery pieces. If recoil was the only issue they would be the least accurate.

    Rail guns are not a given to win the classes. Check out the light and heavy gun aggs. verse the rails guns.

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/light-varmint/

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/rail-gun/
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-05-2019 at 10:37 PM.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check