How is selling home PCed and reloaded ammo legal ???

[JBinMN]

WHAT? Sorry I don't believe that.

Traffer,

It is explained pretty well in this article that you need the FFL 06 license to sell ammunition or the components to make ammunition, as well as being part of ITAR:

You can read for yourself here:
https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need-...-cast-bullets/

Here is the applicable US Codes ( Law):


Manufacturing Ammunition & Licensing according to the US Code:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/923

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Attorney General shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a photograph and fingerprints of the applicant. Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:
(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer—
(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;
(B) of firearms other than destructive devices, a fee of $50 per year; or
(C) of ammunition for firearms, other than ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $10 per year.

Definition of what Ammunition is according to the US Code:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

Applicable ITAR info:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/...I/subchapter-M

ITAR stands for the International Traffic in Arms Regulations which were promulgated to implement the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act of 1976 (AECA). The relevant section (emphasis added) is as follows:

Any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls. For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in the business of manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting a defense article or furnishing a defense service. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

As for what constitutes ‘defense articles’, 22 CFR 121.1 contains a complete listing under what is known as The United States Munitions List (USML). The relevant section is contained in Category III of the list in subsection f:

(1) The components, parts, accessories and attachments controlled in this category include, but are not limited to cartridge cases, powder bags (or other propellant charges), bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding shotgun shells), projectiles (including canister rounds and submunitions therefor), boosters, firing components therefor, primers, and other detonating devices for the defense articles controlled in this category.

The short answer is that, those licensed to manufacture and sell cast bullets are also required to register for ITAR and pay the registration fee.

[Traffer]

Traffer,

It is explained pretty well in this article that you need the FFL 06 license to sell ammunition or the components to make ammunition, as well as being part of ITAR:

You can read for yourself here:
https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need-...-cast-bullets/

Here is the applicable US Codes ( Law):


Manufacturing Ammunition & Licensing according to the US Code:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/923



Definition of what Ammunition is according to the US Code:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921



Applicable ITAR info:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/...I/subchapter-M

I call foul on the Government. In a court of law they would LOSE the case EVERY TIME. Besides those bullets are actually "fishing weights" Just as you can shoot fishing weights out of a barrel you can shoot these things out of a barrel. I WOULD NOT hessitate to sell them without a stinking license.

[JBinMN]

I call foul on the Government. In a court of law they would LOSE the case EVERY TIME. Besides those bullets are actually "fishing weights" Just as you can shoot fishing weights out of a barrel you can shoot these things out of a barrel. I WOULD NOT hessitate to sell them without a stinking license.

Up to you...


No skin off my ***. I was just sharing some info for ya. How ya use it is, like I said, "Up to you.".

[David2011]

You need the FFL to sell just bullets as well as loaded ammo.

You need an 06 or 07 FFL to sell bullets or reloaded ammunition that you have manufactured. No FFL is required to buy at wholesale and resell at retail.

WHAT? Sorry I don't believe that.

Traffer,

It is explained pretty well in this article that you need the FFL 06 license to sell ammunition or the components to make ammunition, as well as being part of ITAR:

You can read for yourself here:
https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need-...-cast-bullets/

Here is the applicable US Codes ( Law):


Manufacturing Ammunition & Licensing according to the US Code:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/923



Definition of what Ammunition is according to the US Code:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921


Applicable ITAR info:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/...I/subchapter-M

I believe Traffer is correct. All of JBinMN's references are for MANUFACTURING including cast bullets. A retailer that would not need an FFL to sell other items, say a fishing tackle store, can purchase and resell already manufactured bullets whether cast of jacketed and can purchase at wholesale and resell commercial ammunition without an FFL. Granted, it's been a while but I've bought .22 ammo at a convenience store that didn't sell firearms. I've seen centerfire ammunition and shotshells on the shelves of small stores in remote areas of NM, CO and AK that didn't sell firearms.

There's not an FFL type for reselling commercial ammunition or components.

[JBinMN]

FFL 06 – Manufacturer of Ammunition for Firearms Other Than Ammunition for Destructive Devices or Armor Piercing Ammunition.

Source:https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...-licenses-ffls

Well, above is the Name/description of what license the ATF thinks is necessary if you are making/manufacturing any ammunition(components are included), FFL 06 – Manufacturer of Ammunition for Firearms Other Than Ammunition for Destructive Devices or Armor Piercing Ammunition, and if folks want to ignore that and not get the ATF FFL -06 license and manufacture home PC'ed boolits, or any kind of projectiles for firearms & sell them, it is their *** in a sling if they are caught doing it & not mine, so I do not care, but that is the way it is right now.

If some one manufactures ammo or components & then sells them to the bait store,convenience store or whomever wholesale, for retail sales further on down the line, so be it, but the "origination point" of those goods( ammo-etc.) of the person(s) & place of business, be it in a factory, a barn or someones home shop, that person(s) need to have the FFL -06 for doing it or they would currently, as the rules/law stands, be breaking the law.

IMO... You don't have to like it, (I don't), & you can choose to ignore it( I don't), but it is the law & until it is changed, that is the way that it is, no matter how you seek to justify it in your mind that it is OK to do it.

I am going to go as far as to say that while it seems to make no sense, since the farmer that grows the corn for the corn liquor/alcohol is not required to have a license to grow & sell his/her corn, but the one who turns it into liquor/alcohol does,( Even if they do not intend to sell it, & even if it is for their own home use for burning & not consumption.) the current law is the current law & using the descriptions set in that US code as law, components are part of ammunition & ammunition being manufactured for sale must be licensed. If you are doing it for your own use, like casting/swaging for reloading, you do not require a license.

So, suit yourselves, but I don't plan on going to waste any more time trying to tell anyone what the laws say, since it is easily looked up for oneself. I brought the info & if ya don't like it, too **** bad, but that is the way it is...

So, either follow the current laws or not. Once again, that is, "Up to you.".

P.S. - I do not think that "trading", or "gifting" someone some ammo or the components, needs a license, so perhaps some of the folks who want to do that might be able to do so without a license, but it is still, "Up to you." if ya do it, or not.

[lightman]

It seems like it would be a thin line between reloading ammo for sale at a show and selling unknown "estate" ammo. Personally, I will only shoot reloaded ammo from a chosen few. Ammo from a gun show, NO WAY!!!

[JBinMN]

It seems like it would be a thin line between reloading ammo for sale at a show and selling unknown "estate" ammo. Personally, I will only shoot reloaded ammo from a chosen few. Ammo from a gun show, NO WAY!!!

Big enough of a line that it is mentioned in the FAQ description at the ATF website on whether one needs a license or not to reload.

Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.

No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a); 27 CFR 478.41]

Source:https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/pers...d-manufacturer

After a bit of looking, "Sales" of ammunition does not need a license, "Manufacturing" does.

(F11) Is a license required to en-gage in the business of selling small arms ammunition? No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only, but a manufacturer or an importer of am-munition must be licensed. [18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)]

Source:https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...-4pdf/download

Components of ammo is included in the "legal definition of "ammunition", so they are not illegal to sell without a license, but are illegal to sell without a license by the person(s)/company who manufactured them. So, for those looking for a "loop hole", will need to figure out how to get the components they manufacture into the hands of a seller without breaking the law.

I do not think the discussion of " evading laws", or any "loopholes" are allowed in this forum, but those who want to try can go right ahead, since it is once again, Up to you.".

[Screwbolts]

Taxation Is Theft!!!

[Smoke4320]

ITAR is still in effect for MFG and gunsmithing

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/fran...e-gun-industry

[lightman]

JB, I'm not arguing the law. The laws are pretty clear, and I guess I was not. What I meant was knowing whether a seller had loaded the ammo for sale or if he just "came by it". That seems like it would be hard to prove.

In the original post ammo loaded with PC'd bullets was mentioned. That leads one to think they loaded the ammo for sale, which would require a license.

[lightman]

JB, I'm not arguing the law. The laws are pretty clear, and I guess I was not. What I meant was knowing whether a seller had loaded the ammo for sale or if he just "came by it". That seems like it would be hard to prove.

In the original post ammo loaded with PC'd bullets was mentioned. That leads one to think they loaded the ammo for sale, which would require a license.

[trapper9260]

I had some that ask me to load some ammo for them I told them only if you buy all the supplies and if I do not have the dies you need to buy them also and we reload them together.Other wise I will not. My navy friend did it and I help him load for his M1 Granad and now he is happy. I show him how to do it all and he did the powder part and I help him with the rest. I show him to develop the load and work up to where he was happy with how it shoots. Others did not want to go with the deal. I told them about the laws and I will not stick my neck out to load for them . If they do it with me ok .Like my friend did.

[jmort]

ITAR is still in effect for MFG and gunsmithing

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/fran...e-gun-industry

Sorry to hear that. Simple deal, call your local ATF office and they will tell you everything you need to know. I spoke with them about shotgun slugs, need FFL 06.
But "multi-projectile" shotgun projectiles, nothing needed.

[rbuck351]

I don't load for others but have let several others use my equipment to learn and load for there own use. I have cast for others but not for profit and have taught others to cast. Met some very nice folks that way and don't have to worry about liability or laws. I suppose one could trade his manufactured ammo parts for other things but selling is illegal. I have bought others reloads but only for the components as I will not shoot them.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I believe that part of the confusion here results from what you see on the tables at a gun show. There are usually a couple of vendors that are selling antique, obsolete, and partial boxes of left over ammo. Like a 20 round box of Peters .30-30 ammo that still contains 16 rounds. That's legal, as the vendor didn't manufacture it. Same with surplus military ammo. A license is required to mfg. ammo, but not to sell ammo, barring state and local laws, and the mfg.s were licensed.

Then there's the guy who's selling full boxes of newly reloaded ammo he loaded up in his basement. If he doesn't have a mfg. license, that's illegal.
Besides the fact that Uncle didn't collect the licensing fee, there's excise tax involved with the sale of new ammo. Also, you've got to be kind of loco to buy it because there's no liability insurance involved if you come up missing eyes or fingers.

The really grey area is the guy that is reselling reloaded ammo that he didn't reload. I suspect that as far as enforcement goes ATF looks at the quantity, just like with the guy selling firearms that doesn't have an FFL. Probably also technically illegal, but a "can of worms" for enforcement as it involves tracing it back to the source and making a determination about the status of the manufacturer.

[fatelk]

I’ve found over the years that offering to teach people how to reload and getting them set up for it is most often an exercise in futility. A tiny percentage ever actually take the time to continue on their own. I still offer when people ask though.

I’m convinced that some people just should not be reloaders at all, if they don’t have the necessary patience and attention to detail. I made the offer to a friend a while back, that he could come over with his own components and I’d help him load some rounds. It was pretty nerve-wracking to try to teach him how to load and at the same time make sure it was done right. He’s a great guy but I just don’t think he has the level of attention to detail for safe reloading.

[JBinMN]

JB, I'm not arguing the law. The laws are pretty clear, and I guess I was not. What I meant was knowing whether a seller had loaded the ammo for sale or if he just "came by it". That seems like it would be hard to prove.

In the original post ammo loaded with PC'd bullets was mentioned. That leads one to think they loaded the ammo for sale, which would require a license.

No worries. I understand what you are saying. I was posting for anyone who reads those post(s).

[David2011]

I don't load for others but have let several others use my equipment to learn and load for there own use. I have cast for others but not for profit and have taught others to cast. Met some very nice folks that way and don't have to worry about liability or laws. I suppose one could trade his manufactured ammo parts for other things but selling is illegal. I have bought others reloads but only for the components as I will not shoot them.

There is probably no distinction between selling and trading since both entail receiving compensation. I have bought several boats that were large enough to have to stay in the water all the time. In every transaction the purchase was for $1.00 or $10.00 "and other good and valuable consideration," all written by yacht brokers. That 'good and valuable consideration' is a standard catch phrase that could be applied to trades.

I have traded one type of molded lead for another type of molded lead (ingots) but I will not sell or trade finished boolits. I have no problem with giving them away but even then it's more likely to be in "try it out" quantities; not feeding someone else's habit. One friend used to bring COWW ingots that we would melt, cast and size together. We split the bounty. I can't see how that would be selling. Some lawyer could probably see it differently.

[David2011]

No worries. I understand what you are saying. I was posting for anyone who reads those post(s).

It's a shame we have to be so careful with the hobby we enjoy, particularly when cast boolits haven't been a viable military grade item for 100 years. Well, there were the Military Police revolvers that used cast .38 specials into the early '60s but that's more a law enforcement item than a combat item.

[Burnt Fingers]

WHAT? Sorry I don't believe that.

You need a FFL to sell bullets you have made.