Weight vs Volume

[chuck40219]

Thought I would check to see about Weight vs Volume of powder.

My devices:
powder measure, purchased in Sporting Goods Store (sometime before 1972)
Lee Powder Scale 90681 purchased in Sporting Goods Store (don't have any ideal when acquired)

Powder:
Geox F2 purchased in Sporting Goods Store (sometime before 2002)

Measure set to: 70 grains
Scale measured weight: 74.5 grains

Does this sound about right?

chuck40219

[243winxb]

Yes. Always load black powder by volume.

[Markopolo]

Well, I don’t have any read black powder other then what I make. What does your volume measure look like??? Set the volume of measure to equal the true weight of the lead in your lee scale. Not sure what goex weighs..

How did your new lee pot work out??? You get that process dialed in??

Marko

[bmortell]

pretty sure all the substitutes are meant to be equal by volume so might be best off to pretend volume is all there is other than checking for fun

[indian joe]

Yes. Always load black powder by volume.

Always???? there quite a few BPCR guys that weigh every charge for better consistency. Ungraphited powder is also a darn good reason to use a scale . When you measure a volume charge you are making a guess about powder density - maybe a well educated guess that works fine - maybe not so. Backing that guess with a scale measurement can hardly be a bad idea.

[indian joe]

Well, I don’t have any read black powder other then what I make. What does your volume measure look like??? Set the volume of measure to equal the true weight of the lead in your lee scale. Not sure what goex weighs..

How did your new lee pot work out??? You get that process dialed in??

Marko

GoEx 5FA at my place goes 79 grains to a FULL 45/70 case - Puck powder goes 73 grains - screened powder goes 55 Grains ----case filled , tapped down , topped up full and scraped off level.

[chuck40219]

Yes. Always load black powder by volume.

Please see post #5

chuck40219

[chuck40219]

Well, I don’t have any read black powder other then what I make. What does your volume measure look like??? Set the volume of measure to equal the true weight of the lead in your lee scale. Not sure what goex weighs..

How did your new lee pot work out??? You get that process dialed in??

Marko

I commend you on making your black powder, you have more guts than I have.

What does your volume measure look like???



I am pretty sure I got this while I was in the Navy.

Just to make sure I understand, lead would not weigh the same by volume as lead?

The pot is waiting on a PID controller from Hatch. He indicated might get it built this last weekend.

chuck40219

[chuck40219]

pretty sure all the substitutes are meant to be equal by volume so might be best off to pretend volume is all there is other than checking for fun

No substitutes here, I intend to only use B/P in the gun I am working with.



chuck40219

[chuck40219]

Always???? there quite a few BPCR guys that weigh every charge for better consistency. Ungraphited powder is also a darn good reason to use a scale . When you measure a volume charge you are making a guess about powder density - maybe a well educated guess that works fine - maybe not so. Backing that guess with a scale measurement can hardly be a bad idea.

Not to discount 243winxb experience lightly, but I agree with you. I come from the bench rest crowd, repeatably means everything in that game.

chuck40219

[chuck40219]

GoEx 5FA at my place goes 79 grains to a FULL 45/70 case - Puck powder goes 73 grains - screened powder goes 55 Grains ----case filled , tapped down , topped up full and scraped off level.

Still learning all the code words for stuff, what is Puck Powder and GoEx 5FA?

chuck40219

[Thundermaker]

Still learning all the code words for stuff, what is Puck Powder and GoEx 5FA?

chuck40219

"Puck powder" is homemade powder that was pressed into solid discs or "pucks", then broken up into granules. Screened powder is homemade powder that is simply run through a screen while wet to produce granules which are less dense. As for goex 5fa, couldn't say. Scheutzen 5fa is listed as reenactor musket powder.

[243winxb]

Measure set to: 70 grains
Scale measured weight: 74.5 grains

Feel free to weigh each charges ,if you wish.

[Gunlaker]

Chuck you will find that different powders, and different lot #'s of the same powder will all have different densities. So you'll never quite make your measure agree with your scale.

You will also find that the measure is not 100% consistent of course. I'd be surprised if you dropped 50 charges and they didn't vary by at least +/- 1/2 of a grain depending on the powder and the measure.

Chris.

[chuck40219]

Weighing for this project is for load development. I am sure once I get everything ironed out (my standard load), I will be using a scoop to measure.

Not trying to make my scale agree with my measure. I will make a measure (scoop) for whatever weight I settle on.

Again I would like to thank everyone for the outpouring of their knowledge. It takes time to sit down and organize thoughts, and type those thoughts in to your computers. Then the editing starts until those thoughts relay what you want to say. Thank you again.

chuck40219

[ian45662]

For my bpcr silhouette shooting I will weigh each charge. When you start switching between lots ,of even the same powder maker, is that the same volume of powder weighs slightly different. One lot will be more or less dense than the other. Take for instance the last lot of Swiss I used before getting the lot I have now. A weighed charge of 84 grains of Swiss 1.5 took up less volume in the case than a weighed charge of 82 grains of the same powder from a different lot. It’s not necessary to weigh every charge of course but my best groups and my best scores have come out of weighed powder charges. You don’t have to just load BP by volume. That’s not how the Creedmoor shooters did it. They weighed their charges and so do I.


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[country gent]

Weight versus volume is misleading at times. I throw BP charges with a lyman 55 measure or a Belding and Mull as the mood strikes me. While both are volume measures they are set with the scales. I normally buy a years worth of powder at a time in a mixed case of 2f 1 1/2f and 1f. ( A 25 lb case of powder doesn't go near as far in these cartridges). Starting out with new powder, cases, or other components is not a big deal.

I have special cases I made up to help with this. They are a standard case with fired primer seated. The neck is split from the mouth down 3/4" with a cut off wheel in a dremil tool. The .030 work good for this. A window is then cut in the case 3/16" - 1/4" down from mouth 1/2" long and 3/8" wide. This case is sized with no expander ball. In use start a bullet in the case and chamber it. Carefully remove case and bullet, bullet is seated to touching the rifling. Base shows thru window and can be measured either from mouth down or base up. Now duplicate this measurement with powder plus compression and minus and wads or grease cookies. Get you very close to where you want to be. If your loading off the lands a set amount this needs to be subtracted from dimension also.

I make the above cases with a square scribe and dremil tool. Ink a case neck mouth up and lay out the cut and window. clamp in a small vise or the collet in your case trimmer will hold it. Cut the split in thru case to depth down cut the 2 cross slices to just touch the line opposite the split then cut the last line. Deburr the edges and its ready to use as described above.

Fill case with desired powder to dimension down from case neck and weigh charge. Set measure to match.

[243winxb]

There is no closed* bomb test for black powders that i know of. The burn rate for 2F could be very different between brands.

Buy powder, work up a load by weight or volume or both. Have fun.

[boommer]

weight volume debate OH BOY !! no I'm right no I'MM right !!

[indian joe]

weight volume debate OH BOY !! no I'm right no I'MM right !!

Yeah we done this already (more n once I think)
Simple really, do ya want that last little bit of accuracy that comes with weighed charges or not?
Its there to be had off a bench or at long range - otherwise most of us dont shoot good enough to tell the difference
however ---- each time this arises there is always someone wants to talk about grains volume like that is something real when it is not - grains is a measure of mass / weight - 70 grains on a scale will always be 70 grains - ya can pour it in a volume measure - (carved horn or old bullet shell or some fancy do dad with calibrated adjustment) and make a mark on the side and say this here mark is how much room 70grains of that powder takes. All good until you change the powder source - all of sudden that same mark could be 65 grains weight or 75 grains weight or anywhere in between. We buy the stuff by weight - why is there a problem shooting it by weight? Volume measures work fine but wouldnt it be smart to calibrate em by weight so when you tell me you using 46 grains I can replicate that?