In my exp, most anything will shoot decent @ 25-30ft. When you push out past 50ft, 75ft, you start seeing real accuracy issues.Originally Posted by Camper64
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In my exp, most anything will shoot decent @ 25-30ft. When you push out past 50ft, 75ft, you start seeing real accuracy issues.
EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
NRA Cert. Inst. Met. Reloading & Basic Pistol
One issue I have seen as a Pistol instructor is that if the target is too close the beginner will focus on target not front sight. All of these bullets might shoot better in a 1:18.750 twist smith and Wesson 38 than they do in a 1:10 9mm.
Bill
Both ends WHAT a player
Mate I feel your pain. I am working through loading the 356-125 rn lee and just leaded the hell out my shadow 2 barrel after 10 shots. I'm using straight coww, coated 2x in hitek and sized to .357. I suspect either the expander plug in the 650 dillon is too small, or I have the crimp die set down too low. The purpose of this load is only to make minor pf for ipsc, so only needs to run 1000fps. Tonight I'll check out the plug and work through minimizing the crimp.
Yes I bet your plug is as Dillon intends it, .353.
In fact they list an "F" as the proper powder funnel for 9mm in both the RL550B and the XL650. #13086 in both instances
Both ends WHAT a player
OK puller arrived today.
All bullets sized .358 and seated without using any crimp to make sure crimp is not causing issue
air cooled after PC and sized .358 seated after Dillon .353 expander base band .355 (sized down .003 in seating)
water dropped from PC sized .358 seated after dillon .353 expander base band .358 (no sizing in seating)
air cooled after PC, sized .358, .359 M plug and then dillon flare, base band .358 no sizing during seating
water dropped from PC sized .358, .359 M plug, dillon flare, base band .358 no sizing during seating
So it would look like the softer bullets air cooled after PC are the issue with bullet being sized by seating if the expander is really small.
Probably for sure there is some variation between brands of brass and how many times it has been reloaded, this was all with one brand of brass.
Bill
Last edited by Willbird; 04-03-2019 at 11:26 AM.
Both ends WHAT a player
I simply don't understand why modern made dies are so poorly made.
I have a set of 1978 RCBS Dies that expand to .356 and an even older set of LYMAN Dies that has an M-Die that expands the same but a bit deeper; .015.
Both my die set seaters merely close the case mouths. I've used an old C&H taper crimp that barely "kisses"/crimps the case mouth.
I cast from an old Lyman # 356402 that drops at .3575 when cast of Linotype. I've used LINO for all auto-loading Bullets. POLISH all feed ramps.
I know most will disagree with my choice of alloy. But My DAD worked it out with .45acp And later 9mm Before I was born. (1954) I merely follow his teaching.
I have a new Lee #356-125-RN 6cav it drops at .3575 with LINO. Haven't shot any yet. But going to try it next week. Walthers, Glocks(Wolf bbl) & Ruger don't like it, it's gone.
As has already been stated range pickup brass stinks. Buy good American made brass and keep it in it's own box. Don't mix brands. Buy a case of 500rds and keep them together as one lot. Check case length. Trim all long cases. And discard short ones.
You can't get a consistent crimp unless you have cases of the same length.
Cases of the same lot/headstamp will give much more consistent pressures. Thus more consistent groups.
I HATE auto-correct
Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.
My Experience and My Opinion, are just that, Mine.
SASS #375 Life
I think they hit that size intentionally....their biggest fear may be bullet setback
Both ends WHAT a player
Did some work with the Lee 120 TC bullet, seems to work better, still seeing some leading but at least all the bullets hit point forward at 25 yards. If I find some issue that is causing the leading that I can cure I will revisit the 125-2R then.
I have been using 50:50 indoor range lead and COWW. I need to smelt up a batch of 100% COWW and give that a try. The 50:50 has enough antimony to heat treat if water dropped from the mold, or water dropped from the PC oven.
Bill
Both ends WHAT a player
Lots of good information in here. Sorry I missed it the first time around as the problem is the same as mine. I'll take some of these suggestions to heart.
Well once we solve the issue we will know if the root cause is the same or not
Bill
Both ends WHAT a player
Interesting developments. I have been working with the Lee 120 grain TC bullet. Pretty much everything I tried would lead the forcing cone and barrel some. Due to the bullet shape and balance maybe it did not tumble due to leading. So I changed several things at once.
1. Checked Convection oven temperature with my IGrill, turns out what my Oven Thermometer told me was 450F was only 375 (Thermometer not oven dial setting) so I bumped it up so the lowest temperature of the swing is above 400F.
2. Alloy, I have been guilty of poor fluxing, would melt and flux with a little wax or something, and skim "stuff" off the top, changed to about twice as much beeswax and that stuff goes into solution..leaving only a little dross that looks like carbon. So I loaded the pot with fresh ingots and fluxed well, what was in there before was sprue returned over and over again combined with poor fluxing.
3. Tried another PC, DRYLAC Gentian Blue.
Sized bullets .358 and seated with .002" neck tension.
WOW....fired 58 rounds so far and ZERO leading, bore honestly looks cleaner than firing Federal jacketed ammo.
Will go back and cast some of the 356-125-2R and try them with both Bacon Grease PC and the DRYLAC powder and post results.....as well as trying the 120TC with Bacon Grease.
Bill
Both ends WHAT a player
This may be a stupid question but, Could a hollow base overcome the swaging effect when crimping these bullets? If it works for other calibers, causing the base of the bullet to expand and fill the barrel, why would it not do the same in a 9mm?
Probably it could. I have a martini rook rifle that is chambered for a ctg that used a heeled bullet around .380 dia. I have fired it with 38 special cases loaded with .358 hollow based wadcutters, they do swell up and grab the rifling and it shoots minute of 3lb coffee can at 50-75 yards
Both ends WHAT a player
I'm literally right in the middle of using these exact molds and trying to get everything worked out.
So with the 120 TC, you are sizing to .358 after powder coating, correct?
What are you using for brass expanding? What OAL of the 120 TC? Are you using a crimp?
On the 120TC somebody had told me 1.06 for the XD but I had to go to 1.03 oal for my gun.
Yes sizing .358 after PC. I have a .357 sizer to try too.
I made up a plug for a Lyman M die to expand big enough and deep enough, for a .358 bullet I ended up with a .359” dia plug to have my case mouth end up .356 inside. I’m belling the case mouth a little with the Dillon powder through expander .
I just turned up a plug quick out of 12L14 steel and left it soft, will make one from O1 this coming week and heat treat it.
Crimping just enough to remove any bell/flare.
Bill
Both ends WHAT a player
"Overall I wonder how many people using Blue machines have tried cast bullets, or even plated bullets once and said "these suck" due to the bullets getting swaged down when being seated."
Willbird: I'm using a Lee 125 gr rn boolit (6-cavity mould - actual weight is @ 130 gr) cast of clip-on ww alloy w/ tin added for fill-out. Boolits are water dropped from mould, water poured off and boolits allowed to dry. Then powder coated with Smoke's clear (cooked for 20 minutes after white power melts at 400 degrees - pre-heated convection oven) and dropped in water out of the oven, then sized with a Star. I'm using an older Dillon XL 650 with .38/357 expander for 9mm. Powder coated boolits squeak as they are seated in 9mm brass and leave a smaller waist behind the boolit. Boolits are so hard that they are not sized down and expand the brass as they are seated. I use the same alloy and procedure with all my cast boolits, rifle and handgun. The water drop the first time is probably unnecessary but the second time is. Boolits cast of clip-on wheel weight water-dropped from the oven will not size down in the case. A few days ago I fired 60 rounds through a foreign-made cheap 9mm that previously gave me fits. Those 60 rounds hit where they were supposed to and made a nice round group. Big Boomer
Last edited by Big Boomer; 04-15-2019 at 10:04 PM. Reason: addition
What is the exact expander you are using and does it deform the 9mm case at all? I used a 38 special M die but I'm told that may not be a good idea.
I see no reason the 38 M die would be bad if you are using .357 or bigger bullets, you can only achieve so much neck tension, some might feel letting the bullet do it's own expanding leaves a shoulder to prevent bullet setback ??
As far as Dillon goes they seem to use the same general expander size formula for everything, my 45 acp expander is tiny too (.449 if I remember right), we should not have to use bullets as hard as Linotype to make a system "work"....IMHO. If the application demands a hard bullet well fine, but that demand should not arise just to get it seated into the loaded round.
The "standard" expander size for generations of reloading dies I have worked with has been pretty much bullet dia, it stretches the case until it yields, giving you the maximum neck tension you could possibly achieve with that case neck.
Bill
Last edited by Willbird; 04-15-2019 at 11:00 PM.
Both ends WHAT a player
My Dillon XL 650 .38/.357 powder through the expander measures .3543 with a Starrett Vernier mic. The 9mm expander measures .353 something. I treat the 9mm cartridge as a high intensity round. After using harder alloy my 9mm problems went away, especially after starting powder coating. Big Boomer
So yep your 9mm Dillon is same size as mine, leaves a case mouth .351 inside for a bullet typically .356 at least, maybe bigger. Might gain .0013 with the 38/357 expander....would give case mouth .3523. Personally I have no desire to use the bullets to expand my case mouths.
Looks like air cooled from PC will work for me with a case mouth -.002 under bullet size so something is working right.
Bill
Both ends WHAT a player
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