"Full-Charge" .38 Special Wadcutter Loads

[PBSmith]

After reading the article by Ed Harris on full charge wadcutters in the .38 Special, I've decided I'd like to try these as my woods/hiking carry load in snubby and 4" barrel revolvers.

I'll start with the 3.5 grs Bullseye that EH suggests, but wonder if any shooters here have tried other powders as well to arrive at a safe full-charge? I have nothing against Bullseye but in other .38 recipes have often found better accuracy with other pistol powders.

I'll be shooting these mostly out of .357's but nonetheless don't want to exceed maximum .38 Special loads. If range testing points to better accuracy at slightly below full-charge, I'll certainly consider those. In my territory we don't have what's normally regarded as "dangerous game," so I have no concern about getting every last possible ft-lb out of my handloads.

Bullets will include the more common 150-grain DWCC's, purchased as well as home-cast.. I'll probably be shooting both a Colt Trooper (original model) and the S&W M66-1. Will have to size differently because cylinder throats are not the same.

Powders I have include W231, HP38, Titegroup, the Hercules/Alliant Dots, AA#2, and a few of the older Hercules numbers.

Look forward to your input. Thanks.

[Outpost75]

Good source of info on full charge wadcutters with other powders is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2010). The following data some from p. 255 of that volume and should give you exactly what you need.

Saeco #052, 148-grain, #2 alloy, OAL 1.265", showing only the max. loads for standard pressure .38 Special:

Velocity from 4" solid barrel in Universal Receiver

Bullseye 3.5 grains 905 fps 17,000 psi
700-X 3.3 grains 897 fps 16,800 psi
TiteGroup 3.4 grains 891 fps 16,800 psi
W231 4.2 grains 915 fps 16,800 psi
Red Dot 3.3 grains 920 fps 16,900 psi
Acc#2 3.3 grains 884 fps 16,700 psi
Unique 4.2 grains 926 fps 16,700 psi

You can expect revolver velocities to be about 30-50 fps less than these solid-barrel figures, depending upon cylinder gap.

[PBSmith]

Excellent. Many thanks for posting. I have all of those powders and will get busy with this project. I need to pick up that Fourth Edition. MAX GRAINS given in the Third are considerably greater, and powder selections do not include some of the more modern ones.

[Outpost75]

Excellent. Many thanks for posting. I have all of those powders and will get busy with this project. I need to pick up that Fourth Edition. MAX GRAINS given in the Third are considerably greater, and powder selections do not include some of the more modern ones.

Third Edition I don't think they shot for pressure...

In .357 guns ONLY I use 9 grs. of Alliant #2400 with 146 DEWC in .38 Special brass for 920 fps from Ruger SP101 with 2" barrel, matches velocity of Federal .38 Special 147-grain HydraShok +P+ LE load.

[bmortell]

my records have, 4in 357 with 357 cases, titegroup 3.6gr-830fps, 4gr-900, 4.5gr-970, 5.0gr-1000, 5.5gr-1030.

they started goin batsh*t as I got close to 1k for speed, and by that I mean you could miss a refrigerator at 10yds.

I cant remember if they weren't sufficiently hard for it or not but I wrote 900fps was good.

that's all I got hope it helps

[Thumbcocker]

I shot many pounds of 358495's from a model 27 smith over 4.9 of 231 in magnum brass. This was a max .38 special load from an old Lyman manual. That load shot very well and taught a possum in the hen house how to stay and play dead for real.

[PBSmith]

Third Edition I don't think they shot for pressure...

In .357 guns ONLY I use 9 grs. of Alliant #2400 with 146 DEWC in .38 Special brass for 920 fps from Ruger SP101 with 2" barrel, matches velocity of Federal .38 Special 147-grain HydraShok +P+ LE load.

More good info. I might as well try it as long as I'm calling up the Trooper. Appreciate your post.

[PBSmith]

I shot many pounds of 358495's from a model 27 smith over 4.9 of 231 in magnum brass. This was a max .38 special load from an old Lyman manual. That load shot very well and taught a possum in the hen house how to stay and play dead for real.

That's the MAX GRAINS load suggested in Edition Three of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Lyman designated it as the "Potentially Most Accurate Load." Note how much they backed off in the Fourth Edition (4.2 grs - MAX in .38 Special). I might try your 4.9 in a .357 just to see what the possums say. Thanks for sharing.

[bmortell]

is everything higher in the 3rd edition cause I only have 4th and I have to say I disagree with their max 44mag data

[Petrol & Powder]

WW 231 was my standard 38 Special powder for many years. Outpost 75's listed load of 4.2 grains of 231 with a DEWC is pretty close to what I ran with a solid flat base WC. I like ww231 but I've been trying to switch over to Bullseye for most of my standard pressure loads. I stlll use 231 for my +P loads (mostly to use it up).

[PBSmith]

is everything higher in the 3rd edition cause I only have 4th and I have to say I disagree with their max 44mag data

Mort,
I can't answer your question because I only have the Third Edition. If you tell me what bullet and powder you're working with, I can tell you what Lyman shows for MAX in the 3rd edition. As I said earlier in this thread, though, the 3rd doesn't show recipes for some of the more modern powders.

[PBSmith]

WW 231 was my standard 38 Special powder for many years. Outpost 75's listed load of 4.2 grains of 231 with a DEWC is pretty close to what I ran with a solid flat base WC. I like ww231 but I've been trying to switch over to Bullseye for most of my standard pressure loads. I stlll use 231 for my +P loads (mostly to use it up).

P&P,
Do you mind telling why you are switching back to Bullseye? Usually I hear about the reverse, though not always with a good explanation. Thanks.

[Petrol & Powder]

P&P,
Do you mind telling why you are switching back to Bullseye? Usually I hear about the reverse, though not always with a good explanation. Thanks.

For some unknown reason that I can only speculate about, years ago Winchester powders were more commonly available in my area. Alliant (Hercules) powders were available via mail order or you could a drive a little farther and pick them up but locally they were not on the shelves. I always had some Bullseye on hand but the bulk of my 38 Special loading was done with 231.
So by default, WW231 became my primary powder for 38 Special. It worked well, I was satisfied, all was good in the world.

Fast forward a lot of years and we had the powder shortage during the Obama years. WW231 became very hard to find (actually most pistol powders were hard to find) and that forced me to broaden my views on powders. I started using powders that I had neglected and Bullseye was one of them.
Many 38 Special loaders swear by Bullseye and I must say that it produces excellent results AND you use less powder per round for the same velocity from WW231. So - good accuracy, a few more rounds per pound of powder and it meters very well in a powder measure like 231.

I REALLY strive for simple logistics and Bullseye is a step in that direction. I have a handful of "Standard" loads and Bullseye is used in several of my standard loads. I only have 1 remaining load for 38 Special in which I still use WW231 ( a +P 158gr SWC load) and when those are gone I will likely switch that load over to Bullseye and work up a replacement using Bullseye for that load.

So the short answer is: Simplified logistics, coupled with good performance and economy.

[rintinglen]

P&P's explanation is why I use 231. When I first started reloading Bullseye was erratic in its availability, so initially I went with RedDot, since shotgun powders were available at cost at a local range. But accuracy was not as good as I wanted with the 38 loads. a friend suggested 231 and I found it to be every thing I wanted. I used it exclusively until just a few years back when O'bummers perceived threat to our hobby resulted in pistol powders being generally unavailable. Surprisingly, my favorite gun shop got regular deliveries, small but regular, of Alliant powders including Bullseye. As was said above, more economical and every bit as accurate as my old standby 231, I grabbed a can every chance I had. I have since stocked up on 231, but Bullseye will remain in the powder shed, it really is an excellent powder.

[PBSmith]

Am I correct in believing the 3.5 grs Bullseye with a 150-gr DEWC is NOT a +P loading?

I'd like to put a few of these through a 1961 Colt Detective Special.

Thanks.

[Petrol & Powder]

Am I correct in believing the 3.5 grs Bullseye with a 150-gr DEWC is NOT a +P loading?

I'd like to put a few of these through a 1961 Colt Detective Special.

Thanks.

Yes, that is still a standard pressure load but it's getting close to the upper limit for standard pressure 38 Special.
That bullet with 3.8 grains of Bullseye behind it is +P.

[RED BEAR]

Red dot and unique are my go to powders for 38 spec.

[Outpost75]

In .357 brass you can go up to 5 grains of Bullseye with a 146-grain DEWC at 1.325" OAL.

Do not exceed 3.5 grains of Bullseye in .357 brass if loading and flush-seating soft-swaged HBWCs, to avoid blowing the skirt.

[MT Gianni]

In my 38's, S&W 2" J frame, 4" and 6" K frames I have run AA2 and Red Dot as well as BE with the 148 gr wadcutters. BE gives me the best accuracy.

[scattershot]

Check out Tazman’s thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-357-revolvers for some good info. He is trying more for accuracy, but good info there.