.22 Long Rifle Center Fire

[M-Tecs]

https://www.rccbrass.com/22-long-rif...GeQvhM3g28KXMw
22 Long Rifle Center Fire
We were recently contacted by Dan Hilliard to manufacture a centerfire .22 Long Rifle. With the specs he sent us we now have reloadable .22 Long Rifle cartridges. This idea has been with Dan for quite a while and had tried it using rimfire brass he modified. After several firings the case head would weaken and no longer hold a primer.
So, Dan sent us his specification and we manufactured him his .22 Long Rifle Center Fire cartridges with a small primer pocket and flash hole. He has developed loads capable of propelling a .22” dia. 40 gr. bullet at 1,080 fps with 105 ft.-lbs. of energy at the muzzle.
Roberson Cartridge Company is a custom manufacture of Vintage, Obsolete, Hard to Find and Wildcat calibers.

[John Boy]

If RCC modified the 22LR to centerfire - why not expand the inventory to 22WRF and 22 Magnum?
Jeff Roberson just modified 32 Long CF's to 32 Long RF using 6mm Flobert primers for my Stevens Tip UP. Should receive the cases next week

[WehrmannsGeweher]

Col Charles Askins did this decades ago to have a match winning pistol centerfire cartridge. He started by using an obscure cartridge called the Velo Dog.

[M-Tecs]

Col Charles Askins did this decades ago to have a match winning pistol centerfire cartridge. He started by using an obscure cartridge called the Velo Dog.

I knew about the Velo Dog but didn't know he .221 Askins. Very cool.

https://www.colt22.com/featured/askins_2.html

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art.../the-velo-dog/

[sigep1764]

Are there dies and shell holders available for this?

[tim338]

Wow. $3.25 each.

[Chev. William]

Is this ".22 Long Rifle Center Fire" intended for .226" case body diameter and Heeled bullets?
Or is it about .250" Case body diameter and intended for .224" diameter Inside lubed Bullets?

The Link does NOT state directly.

Although the Photo seems to point toward a Thin Primer Pocket wall with the 'no Extractor Clearance Cut' design and very Narrow pocket to rim edge apparent dimension.

I have made some ".22 Ladybug precursor cases of .250" outside body diameter by Swaging down .25ACP cases. They will take .224" diameter inside lube bullets and still have a vestigial remaining "Extractor Clearance Cut" above the rim and take the same 'Small Pistol or Rifle Primers' of .175" nominal diameter.

"NoZombies" first proposed and developed The "Ladybug" and later "Ladybug-Repeater" .22 CF cases as described on this Forum in another Thread.

Chev. William

[Don McDowell]

Here's where it all got started. http://wyomingschuetzenunion.com/ubb.../topics/2120/2

[Chev. William]

Here's where it all got started. http://wyomingschuetzenunion.com/ubb.../topics/2120/2

14 pages of "fine print and photos" is a lot of discussion, I sampled pages two and three.

NOTE: .22 Winchester Auto RF, and .221 Askins CF both used .250 Body diameter Cases.

NOTE:.25ACP can be swaged down to .250 body diameter with reasonable effort, all the way to the top of the rim, or at least to the Extractor Clearance Cut where the Swaging die will leave a separated ring of displaced Brass to be removed by hand.

In my Swaging Processes, I have swaged .22 Hornet and 5.7x28mm Brass Full Length down to body diameter of .276"-.278" to make 'parent cases' for Center Fire . 25 Stevens (RF) cases of 1.125" trim length.

I have also made the same parent cases into;
- .25ALRM of 1.250" case length.
- .25MACP of 1.024"-1.055" case length.
- .25ALR of 0.960" case Length.
These have been fired through a Custom .25ACP Ruger Single Eight Revolver with a 10-5/8" long barrel and using interchangeable modified 8-shot aftermarket '.22Magnum' cylinders that were bored out and chambered in each of the above cartridges lengths using custom Finish Chamber Reamers made to cut .2795" diameter Parallel wall Chambers.

I also have a Custom converted Ruger Standard Auto MKII Pistol in .25ACP that was also chambered with a .custom Finish reamer of .2795" body diameter. It has a 8-1/8" long Barrel made from a Lothar Walther .25ACP/6,35 Browning Rifled Barrel Blank remainder from making the revolver Barrel.

Back to the Swaging of.25ACP brass down to .250" or slightly less body diameter:
I used multiple stages of homemade dies based upon Drill Bushings or Hornady Neck Sizing bushings installed in machined out Pacific Tool and Gauge Die Blanks. Since the Drill Bushings are parallel walled with no 'taper' to the Mouth, I used small steps differences to minimise Brass shaving or displacement.
All Swaging steps used a RCBS Primer Pocket Swaging punch to support the the Pocket, but allow the web to contract the Flash hole, which was later Drilled back out to ~.078" diameter to pass a Lee Decapping punch tip.

A thin ring of displaced Brass is sheared off by the Bushings at the top of the Extractor Clearance Cut on the .25ACP case, down to ~.250" body diameter.

NOTE: the RCBS punch was used with a Fender washer on top of the RCBS Stripper Cup, to limit the depth of the primer pocket swageing.

Chev. William

[BigAlofPa.]

Wow. $3.25 each.

He advertises on MEWE. I asked him why his casings on the expensive side. No response. Good way not gain customers IMO.

[Don McDowell]

The whole point of Dan's excercise was not to see who could do the most machining, and wasn't to come up with something that was "cheap" enough to keep 500 rounds on hand to go blaze thru in a weekend at the range.
Rather it was in search of a way to be able to feed a 22 lr chambered rifle without major modifications to it. Hence the start with the contender, (for those unaware you flip the switch on a contender hammer to alternate between rim fire and center fire firing pins).
Yes the cases are expensive, but with a dozen or so in hand it would allow one to keep enough stuff available to keep a 22 lr chambered gun active in the event that factory 22 lr should not be available for what ever reason. The only practical way for this to happen for most folks with out a lot of machine tools was to to use the lathe turned cases. Yes they are a bit spendy, but even a hundred of those are cheaper than buying a cheap bench top lathe and the proper brass material to machine them, or hydraulic presses etc....

[rbuck351]

You could buy 100 of these cases for $325 or buy about 7000rds of 22lr at current prices. If you bought 100 cases you would still need a heeled bullet mold, another $80 maybe and 7000 primers, another $210 or so and another $25 for powder. Spend that $600+ on loaded 22lr and save a case for when it may not be available. If you have a contender in 22lr and just like to play with different stuff, buy a few and have fun. I thought about it briefly but don't have a 22lr barrel for my contender but do have a couple of 22 Hornets and 223s that can duplicate 22lr ballistics. I can't imagine there being a large market for CF 22lr with so few guns being available to shoot them.

[dverna]

You could buy 100 of these cases for $325 or buy about 7000rds of 22lr at current prices. If you bought 100 cases you would still need a heeled bullet mold, another $80 maybe and 7000 primers, another $210 or so and another $25 for powder. Spend that $600+ on loaded 22lr and save a case for when it may not be available. If you have a contender in 22lr and just like to play with different stuff, buy a few and have fun. I thought about it briefly but don't have a 22lr barrel for my contender but do have a couple of 22 Hornets and 223s that can duplicate 22lr ballistics. I can't imagine there being a large market for CF 22lr with so few guns being available to shoot them.

I think the same as you do...but you forgot the cost of custom dies. Say another $100+? And if you do not own a Contender....some gun work is needed and that adds cost unless someone is talented. It is an interesting project for the right person.

I have 20k LR's in stock so not worried about running out. Might add another 10k but not sure it makes sense at my age. The .38/.357 pistols and rifles do a good job for cheap practice and pest control if .22's get scarce. Cost is under $3/box.

[Drm50]

It's amazed me that S&W or Ruger didn't premote a 22CF cartridge even before panic. Since the purpose is accuracy not a replacement for 22 RF ammo. If it was designed on a semi rimmed case in would be versatile in
semi autos and many rifle designs. Seems like all cartridge developement is for large calibers and super magnums.

[BigAlofPa.]

22 TCM has my interest. I have been thinking about a RIA 9MM/22 TCM 1911.

[Chev. William]

Considering Their Material, Machining, and Programming Costs; I think RCC prices are reasonable for their Products.

After all , where else can you order 50 of a Custom Wildcat dimensionaly correct Cases with their tight tolerances.

Chev. William

[roadie]

I wish this .22 CF had been available 20 years ago when I built my idea of a reloadable .22 RF. In my case, I shortened a .22 Hornet by .375 or thereabouts and adapted a Brno .22 RF to handle it. It worked out fine and was well worth the effort......but it would have been easier if something like this was available, just convert a bolt to center fire and get another for rimfire. It would have saved time on making the reamer as well.

Yes, these cases aren't what you call cheap, but neither is all the equipment that company has to have to make them. And really, I'm as much a cheapskate as the next guy, but c'mon.....this shooting thing is supposed to be fun, and some of us actually have fun playing around with stuff like this.

It seems that with anything different to what has been "normal" for the last 150 years, well, it hits a button with the naysayers and they just have to pooh pooh all over it.......ain't none of us gettin out of this world alive, may as well have some fun while we're here.

[rbuck351]

I wouldn't say the price is unreasonable but I'm not so sure the concept is reasonable. I'm sure there will be a few folks that will like to play with a CF 22lr but I don't see them becoming real popular. I like to play with stuff that's a bit different too, but this one doesn't do much for me. To each his own.

If 22lr becomes unobtainium again, I think it would be cheaper to buy a 22H with the necessary loading equipment than to convert a 22lr rifle to CF and buy all the loading stuff necessary and you would have a much more versatile gun.

[Chev. William]

I wish this .22 CF had been available 20 years ago when I built my idea of a reloadable .22 RF. In my case, I shortened a .22 Hornet by .375 or thereabouts and adapted a Brno .22 RF to handle it. It worked out fine and was well worth the effort......but it would have been easier if something like this was available, just convert a bolt to center fire and get another for rimfire. It would have saved time on making the reamer as well.

Yes, these cases aren't what you call cheap, but neither is all the equipment that company has to have to make them. And really, I'm as much a cheapskate as the next guy, but c'mon.....this shooting thing is supposed to be fun, and some of us actually have fun playing around with stuff like this.

It seems that with anything different to what has been "normal" for the last 150 years, well, it hits a button with the naysayers and they just have to pooh pooh all over it.......ain't none of us gettin out of this world alive, may as well have some fun while we're here.

Yes, i agree.
Chev. William

[Earlwb]

Since I already have a 22TCM rifle and handgun that I can reload for and load it down to 22 LR velocities. Thus I don't need it. But if I didn't have the 22TCM already, I would be quite interested and all over this interesting design. I can see it being quite useful if 22 rimfire ammo becomes scarce again. But who knows, I might just decide to do up a rifle to shoot this cartridge anyway. Now since they have the means to make it, I suppose they could make longer cartridge cases too. Lots of interesting things there to think about with it.