.45 acp classic lee loader

[Ceb427]

Hi guys I’m new here so sorry if this question has been covered before or this is posted in the wrong place. My question is has anyone had problems with the bullet getting pushed into the case during cycling after reloading with a lee classic reloader I know the opposite end crimps but it’s says not to crimp .45 acp due to headspace has anyone experienced problems by not crimping .45 acp with one of these hand kits thank you

[W.R.Buchanan]

No,,, you must Taper Crimp a .45 ACP. The crimp should measure .468 at the mouth of the case. This still leaves sufficient case mouth showing to pickup the step in the chamber and headspace the round.

The Taper Crimp is there so the boolit doesn't get pushed back into the case when feeding in the gun.

Lots of times you will hear about guys who don't crimp their Auto Pistol rounds. This is because they have sufficient case neck tension to hold the boolit in place. If your Lee Loader won't squeeze the neck of the case closed enough to do this, then the other option is Crimping the boolit in place.

Something to Consider: Every single factory loaded rifle and pistol round has the bullet crimped in place.

There must be a good reason for this?

Randy

[jcren]

I had fits with 45 acp lee loaders. Make sure you get the brass pounded down completly flush when sizing and a light tap on the sizer side helps. Dont try to crimp too much, brass has spring back and lead does not, so too much crimp will make it worse.

[243winxb]

Remington brass has thin walls, it let bullets get pushed into the case .

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The ol' Lee Loader .45 ACP. Been there and done that! The tapered end will crimp, but it's akin to a roll crimp, and like already mentioned a taper crimp is usually used for most auto cartridges. But, it can be done if you go about it right. Firstly, the bullet you're crimping with the Lee Loader must have a crimping groove. Proportionately, not too many .45 Auto cast boolits have a crimping groove, but a couple do. You must seat to the very top of the groove and then tap, tap, tap enough to get the mouth of the case to bend inward so as to be against the base of the bullet remaining above the crimping groove. It works just fine, and heaspace will be o.k. However, this won't work with hardball, plated bullets, or cast bullets lacking a crimping groove because the mouth of the case will usually buckle upward a bit just behind the mouth and then the cartridge won't chamber. So, have the right bullet, and go slowly, inspect your work and quit when you get the mouth bent inward enough to do the job.

It sounds, really, like you're about ready to graduate to a more serious reloading press and regular dies. If and when you do, read up a bit on the Lee Factory Crimp Die, which puts a final resize on your loaded cartridge and can be adjusted for light to serious crimp for heavy loads. Well worth the few bucks for the purchase price, as if you loaded cartridge will pass through the LFCD it is guaranteed to chamber.

When I first got into reloading, about 1966, my first purchase was a Lee Loader in .38 Special, followed by the .45 ACP version. Still have them, and about 8 other sets, but relegated them to the storage cabinet long ago. Still a good way to get started!

[Ceb427]

The ol' Lee Loader .45 ACP. Been there and done that! The tapered end will crimp, but it's akin to a roll crimp, and like already mentioned a taper crimp is usually used for most auto cartridges. But, it can be done if you go about it right. Firstly, the bullet you're crimping with the Lee Loader must have a crimping groove. Proportionately, not too many .45 Auto cast boolits have a crimping groove, but a couple do. You must seat to the very top of the groove and then tap, tap, tap enough to get the mouth of the case to bend inward so as to be against the base of the bullet remaining above the crimping groove. It works just fine, and heaspace will be o.k. However, this won't work with hardball, plated bullets, or cast bullets lacking a crimping groove because the mouth of the case will usually buckle upward a bit just behind the mouth and then the cartridge won't chamber. So, have the right bullet, and go slowly, inspect your work and quit when you get the mouth bent inward enough to do the job.

It sounds, really, like you're about ready to graduate to a more serious reloading press and regular dies. If and when you do, read up a bit on the Lee Factory Crimp Die, which puts a final resize on your loaded cartridge and can be adjusted for light to serious crimp for heavy loads. Well worth the few bucks for the purchase price, as if you loaded cartridge will pass through the LFCD it is guaranteed to chamber.

When I first got into reloading, about 1966, my first purchase was a Lee Loader in .38 Special, followed by the .45 ACP version. Still have them, and about 8 other sets, but relegated them to the storage cabinet long ago. Still a good way to get started!

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation Not sure but I don’t think these bullets have a crimp grove they have a groove but it seems to low to be for crimping seems headspace will suffer what do you think ? This is a link to the bullets I’m using
http://www.brazosprecision.com/45-23...llet_p_16.html

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Interesting. That bullet probably isn't the best choice....but: The big groove is a lube groove. Did it come with lube in it, or is it just plain lead? If there is no lube, then we'll get back to that in a minute.

If you are very careful you might be able to crimp the mouth of the case right at the bottom of the ogive (the rounded nose of the bullet) at the top of the top of the driving band. That is the wide band above the lube groove. You can probably bend the mouth of the case over a little just past the top of the band, but you'll likely ruin a few before you get the hang of it. You'd probably be better off to seek a different bullet that has a groove for crimping. Anyway, you are correct that headspace will suffer if you crimp into the lube groove, as your cartridge's overall length (OAL) will probably be too long to chamber as the nose of the bullet will jam up against the rear of the rifling in the bore.

Back to the lube, if there is none, and you wish to continue with this bullet, you'll have to apply some to the groove. At your entry level of reloading equipment there are two ways to go that I can think of:

(1) You can stand the bullets upright in a shallow pan in which you've melted some lube. Let it harden and then cut the bullets out of the lube with a tool of close to the same diameter as the bullet diameter. A 45-70 cartridge case would probably work, or any case with a .45 diameter body. You'd want to cut off the neck (if it has one) and the base leaving a .45 size tube, so that you can put it over a bullet and cut it out of the lube, then put it over another and cut it out, another, etc. until they pass through the tube and start coming out in your hand. This is usually referred to a "the cookie cutter method" of lubing. Lee Precision used to make lube sticks specifically for this application, a mixture of wax and alox, but I don't know if they're still available. Most lube sticks as used in lube machines might work, or you could brew up your own lube.

(2) Another way you could lube them is to do each bullet manually with some grease from a can and something like a matchstick for an applicator. At this point, in this area we're pushing the limit of my knowledge, as I just experimented with making up some loads with this method this winter, and have not as yet tried them out. There once was a fellow who posted on the forum, and I believe he was from Argentina (but was never certain as he wouldn't specifically say) and he had to improvise reloading methods, tools, and supplies due to shortages where he lived. He advocated the use of white lithium grease as a bullet lube and said that he got excellent results. Anyway, I found myself in possession of a batch of approx. 215 gr. .454 diameter un-lubed bullets from an unknown mold, so I decided to experiment and loaded them into .45 ACP cases for use in a 1917 revolver. Apply the grease carefully, and wipe off any that gets onto the base of the bullet so as not to contaminate the powder charge. As you seat the bullet, any excess on the sides will kind of hydraulic its way out of the mouth and can be wiped off with a rag. I can not, at this time, say how well it will work as far as long term storage, preventing leading, accuracy, etc., but will get around to shooting them this summer. I've attached some photos to illustrate what I'm talking about.

To re-cap, my opinion is that you should probably look around until you find some pre-lubed cast bullets that have a crimping groove, and just store your present bullets away until you have some more advanced equipment. But, you might be able to produce some acceptable ammo by proceeding as outlined above, cookie cutter lubing or smear lubing, and careful crimping just above the top of the upper driving band. It will be labor intensive and time consuming, but perhaps that works for you.



Attachment 238707Attachment 238708Attachment 238709Attachment 238710
Click to enlarge.

Some afterthoughts: If you go to the top of the page and click on the link to Lee, then click on bullet casting, then on
handgun molds, take a look at molds # 452-200-RF and #452-228-1R for .45 ACP. They have a definite crimping groove and might be very suitable for your needs. Of course, you'll have to buy a mold, and then you'll become hooked on casting your own. Lastly, a third method of lubrication you might try that had slipped my mind -- Lee Tumble Lube. Just about the easiest way possible to lube boolits, just pour some in a container, swish your boolits around in the lube until they're coated, then put them on some newspaper to dry. They're ugly, but it works well. Best wishes on your project.

DG

[Ceb427]

Interesting. That bullet probably isn't the best choice....but: The big groove is a lube groove. Did it come with lube in it, or is it just plain lead? If there is no lube, then we'll get back to that in a minute.

If you are very careful you might be able to crimp the mouth of the case right at the bottom of the ogive (the rounded nose of the bullet) at the top of the top of the driving band. That is the wide band above the lube groove. You can probably bend the mouth of the case over a little just past the top of the band, but you'll likely ruin a few before you get the hang of it. You'd probably be better off to seek a different bullet that has a groove for crimping. Anyway, you are correct that headspace will suffer if you crimp into the lube groove, as your cartridge's overall length (OAL) will probably be too long to chamber as the nose of the bullet will jam up against the rear of the rifling in the bore.

Back to the lube, if there is none, and you wish to continue with this bullet, you'll have to apply some to the groove. At your entry level of reloading equipment there are two ways to go that I can think of:

(1) You can stand the bullets upright in a shallow pan in which you've melted some lube. Let it harden and then cut the bullets out of the lube with a tool of close to the same diameter as the bullet diameter. A 45-70 cartridge case would probably work, or any case with a .45 diameter body. You'd want to cut off the neck (if it has one) and the base leaving a .45 size tube, so that you can put it over a bullet and cut it out of the lube, then put it over another and cut it out, another, etc. until they pass through the tube and start coming out in your hand. This is usually referred to a "the cookie cutter method" of lubing. Lee Precision used to make lube sticks specifically for this application, a mixture of wax and alox, but I don't know if they're still available. Most lube sticks as used in lube machines might work, or you could brew up your own lube.

(2) Another way you could lube them is to do each bullet manually with some grease from a can and something like a matchstick for an applicator. At this point, in this area we're pushing the limit of my knowledge, as I just experimented with making up some loads with this method this winter, and have not as yet tried them out. There once was a fellow who posted on the forum, and I believe he was from Argentina (but was never certain as he wouldn't specifically say) and he had to improvise reloading methods, tools, and supplies due to shortages where he lived. He advocated the use of white lithium grease as a bullet lube and said that he got excellent results. Anyway, I found myself in possession of a batch of approx. 215 gr. .454 diameter un-lubed bullets from an unknown mold, so I decided to experiment and loaded them into .45 ACP cases for use in a 1917 revolver. Apply the grease carefully, and wipe off any that gets onto the base of the bullet so as not to contaminate the powder charge. As you seat the bullet, any excess on the sides will kind of hydraulic its way out of the mouth and can be wiped off with a rag. I can not, at this time, say how well it will work as far as long term storage, preventing leading, accuracy, etc., but will get around to shooting them this summer. I've attached some photos to illustrate what I'm talking about.

To re-cap, my opinion is that you should probably look around until you find some pre-lubed cast bullets that have a crimping groove, and just store your present bullets away until you have some more advanced equipment. But, you might be able to produce some acceptable ammo by proceeding as outlined above, cookie cutter lubing or smear lubing, and careful crimping just above the top of the upper driving band. It will be labor intensive and time consuming, but perhaps that works for you.



Attachment 238707Attachment 238708Attachment 238709Attachment 238710
Click to enlarge.

Some afterthoughts: If you go to the top of the page and click on the link to Lee, then click on bullet casting, then on
handgun molds, take a look at molds # 452-200-RF and #452-228-1R for .45 ACP. They have a definite crimping groove and might be very suitable for your needs. Of course, you'll have to buy a mold, and then you'll become hooked on casting your own. Lastly, a third method of lubrication you might try that had slipped my mind -- Lee Tumble Lube. Just about the easiest way possible to lube boolits, just pour some in a container, swish your boolits around in the lube until they're coated, then put them on some newspaper to dry. They're ugly, but it works well. Best wishes on your project.

DG

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation I really appreciate your help going to see about ordering new bullets or I do have the means to cast my own perhaps I’ll order a mold and a small single stage press to size them to .452 or if I buy a lee hand loader with a taper crimp die can I use the bullets I already have without the crimp groove ?

[mdi]

There's nothing wrong with those bullets. IIRC most bullets of that design are from an RCBS mold 45-230-RN (of course RCBS didn't design the bullet, they just make a mold). I read/heard to seat the bullet to the shoulder end and taper crimp, much like seating a SWC. I do not crimp any semi-auto cartridges, I deflare with a taper crimp die, and use the plunk test...

I have 7 Lee Loaders but none in 45 ACP so I don't know what type of crimp they use, but I would believe the use the appropriate crimp style (taper crimp).

[W.R.Buchanan]

You don't need boolits with a crimp groove. Boolits with a crimp groove are designed to be Roll Crimped. Auto Pistol bullets or boolits do not have a crimp groove.

A properly done Taper Crimp only penetrates the sides of the boolit about .002-.003 per side.

The case wall thickness is .010-.011 Boolit is sized .452 .452+.022 =.472,,, .472-.004=.468

In the picture below the case measures .472 just below the bulge where the boolit is. The case mouth is .468 meaning that the case has been pushed into the boolit .004 total or .002 per side.

If you look closely you can see the tapered part of the case mouth.

This is how a Taper is done no matter if the bullet has a jacket or is plain lead. The boolits on either side of the loaded round are standard Lyman 452374 which is the most common .45 ACP cast boolit out there. It doesn't have a crimp groove.

It does have a Lube groove but since those boolits were powder coated it was not used. If it was used as a crimp groove like other boolits with a crimp groove the round won't headspace as the case mouth would be below the outside of the boolit.

As far as case spring back in the case of a Taper Crimp it is negligible and compensated for during the setup of the die.

All this is going to be hard to control consistently with a Lee Loader. If you were running your Lee Loader with an Arbor Press or Drill Press you could set a stop so you pushed the case the same depth into the die every time. This could give you consistent Taper Crimps.

Randy

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The comments above are all true. I was answering your question the way it was put, and the way I understood it. No, there is nothing wrong per se with the bullets that you have. But, the tool that you have uses a roll crimp, and like you initially observed, there isn't any place where a roll crimp will be effective on this style of bullet, except in the lube groove which will make the overall cartridge length too long to chamber in a 1911.
Yes, a taper crimp will work with this bullet, but your present Lee Loader will not make a taper crimp, and you will need to acquire a set of dies that feature a taper crimp die, or buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die which is much the same thing as a taper crimp, except it also checks the case size one last time. If you are willing to step up to even the simplest single stage press and a regular set of dies your crimping problems will be solved. Then you can successfully use the bullets you have on hand. If you want to roll crimp your loads you will be far ahead to use bullets with a crimping groove.

[Ceb427]

Thank you all guys I’ve decided to buy a lee single stage press with a taper crimp die

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Good, less expensive choice and way to start. You won't regret it.

Most new dies for straight walled cases are carbide now days, but make sure -- and that will save you from having to lube the cases when sizing them. I think the Lee press comes two ways, separately and in a kit. The kit version probably has some other useful items like a powder funnel and a tube of lube which you will need for bottle necked cartridge cases. "Not a problem," you say -- "I don't have any other guns or cartridges."
It's inevitable that it will change.

Back in the stone age days we used to have big lube pads that resembled stamp pads that we squirted lanolin on, and rolled the cases back and forth on the pad to lube them. It was a sticky mess, and after you sized them there was another extra step of wiping the lube off of the cases so that they didn't attract dirt and grit. Some members still use this system for their rifle cartridges, but I don't know of anyone using it for straight walled pistol cases anymore. Carbide dies -- a great advance in reloading equipment!

[TNsailorman]

Good advice DG and I do remember the lube pads, still have one and occasionally use it. Mostly with the o6. I have and still use a Lee Loader in .45ACP, a 1963 model and I have never had a problem with bullets not fitting properly. I mostly load .45AR with it but also ACP. I did have a problem with a .30 M1 Carbine Loader in the 60's but found out that it was the civilian brass (read -- thinner case mouths) and once I started loading all GI brass the problem went away. It that set the problem was the bullet cold actually be turned with the fingers after loading. my experience anyway, james

[Ceb427]

Well guys everything I ordered came today I also ordered a reload manual (Richard Lee second edition ) it doesn’t have the load data I’m looking for can anyone tell me the load data of bullseye powder for a 230 grain lead round nose bullet including min overall case length the help is much appreciated

[TNsailorman]

The Lyman 45th edition reloading manual has the following listing.
Starting load: Bullseye = 3.5 grains at 702 fps.
Maximum load: Bullseye = 4.7 grains at 854 fps.
Acuracy load: Bullseye = 3.5 grains at 702 fps.

Starting load: Red Dot = 4.0 grains at 700 fps.
Maximum load: Red Dot = 5.3 grains at 880 fps.

Straight from the 45th book, james

[Ceb427]

The Lyman 45th edition reloading manual has the following listing.
Starting load: Bullseye = 3.5 grains at 702 fps.
Maximum load: Bullseye = 4.7 grains at 854 fps.
Acuracy load: Bullseye = 3.5 grains at 702 fps.

Starting load: Red Dot = 4.0 grains at 700 fps.
Maximum load: Red Dot = 5.3 grains at 880 fps.

Straight from the 45th book, james

Thank you so much that’s for a 230 grain lead bullet ?

[TNsailorman]

225 lead RN. So should be safe in your application. 5 grains bullet weight is not going to make much difference, maybe 10 to 15 fps. gain. I usually run them in a revolver but seat the same length as a JRN. james