Newbie looking for advice

[Brkenarrow]

First off, thank you all for the advice and the warm welcome! I’ll try to respond to everyone’s questions/comments here and I’ll also have a few more questions. After reading on the forum here, I’m starting to lean towards the Lee 20# pot and learning to ladle cast due in part to the size and price of the pot. I may upgrade in the future, but it seems like a good place to start. I plan to pick up the Lyman cast bullets manual. It’s actually been sitting on an Amazon wish list for a couple years! In response to daloper, I am from Minnesota, a bit north of the Twin Cities. I’m going to be casting for 9mm, 40 S&W, and might try to cast for the 30-30 and 30-06.

Why are wheel weight ingots better than range scrap lead? I’m about four chapters into “From Ingot to Target” and I’m assuming it is because range scrap lead is soft and may need to be mixed (is alloyed the right term?) with tin and antimony to harden it?

The scrap yards around here won’t resell lead, unfortunately. I’ve called a couple big tire shop chains but they won’t sell wheel weights. I plan to stop at some smaller shops and ask around. Any other sources of lead, tin, and antimony I should check into?

I’ve read that zinc, if melted with the lead, will ruin it for casting. How exactly does it ruin the lead?

If ladle casting, is it reasonable to use the 4+ cavity molds, or is sticking to the 1-2 cavity molds recommended?

Powder coating – pros and cons? For those that do it, do you find it worthwhile?

Again, thank you everyone for your comments, advice, and the warm welcome. I certainly do appreciate each and every one of the tidbits of advice!

[EDG]

Bullet metal
There are almost an infinite variety of alloys that will work.
There are 2 main metals in the alloy - Lead and tin.
Plus there are 2 other metals that may or may not be used. Those are antimony and some times arsenic.

Lead provides the low melting point and heavy mass for ballistic performance - the weight of the bullet.

Tin lowers the melting point even more but most importantly it reduces the surface tension and enable the metal to flow more like water to fill out the mold. Tin also makes the alloy a little harder. Most of us like to minimize tin because it is the most expensive metal in the alloy. But for a rookie more tin can be easier to cast with.

Antimony makes the lead harder much faster and cheaper than tin but the extra hardness is not always needed. So does arsenic. Ignore arsenic. You can get by without it.

The main things to consider with bullet alloys are:
1. Will it flow easily and cast well
2. Is it hard enough
3. Can you duplicate it every time so you're casting with the same alloy and getting the same results.
4. Is it economical

People use wheel weights because it has already been alloyed with small amounts of tin and antimony. At one time the metal was cheap.
For low velocity rifle and hand gun ammo up to about 1200 fps it works fine. Most people can get it to cast as is. If it is not flowing well many add 1% tin. Clip on wheel weights (COWW) are about 12 Brinell to 13 Brinell hardness. You can test this by practicing with your thumb nail. A tough strong thumb nail will barely groove a wheel weight.

Another alloy suitable for the same velocity range is 20 parts pure lead (not COWW) mixed with 1 part tin. 20-1 alloy is about 10 Brinell. You can groove it with your thumb. It works well to about 1200 fps.
I like 20-1 because it is easy to alloy and get the same metal every time.

Since I do not shoot higher velocities I have no need for other metals but if I did I would use Lyman #2 and maybe linotype.
These are standard alloys that are easy to make and duplicate. In the case of linotype you usually buy it already alloyed.
Lyman #2 is about 15 to 16 Brinell and is suitable for a little higher velocity. It is 90% lead 5% tin and 5% antimony. Buy it already alloyed if you want to use a consistent alloy.

Linotype is about 22 Brinell - pretty hard for higher rifle velocities. It is 84% lead 4% tin 12% antimony.
Buy it already alloyed if you can. Rotometals has all these alloys.

The last alloy is called hard ball and it is about 16 Brinell. It is 92% lead 2% tin and 6% antimony. It is about as hard as Lyman #2 but is a little cheaper due to less tin.

My advice is pick one of the simple easy to mix, easy to cast alloys and use only it for a while.
Don't try to hot rod it.

Focus on casting quality bullets and sizing them about .001 to .002 larger than your groove diameter.
Pick a commonly used powder that every one has success with. Do not try to use some odd ball powder because you are too cheap to buy a pound of the right stuff.

Use a common well known bullet metal, a well documented powder. Use care assembling your ammo and you will have a lot of fun. Just keep it simple for a while.

[sureYnot]

Welcome.
Zinc - has the opposite effect as tin. It increases surface tension and makes it impossible to get your mold to fill out. It doesn't take much to ruin a 20# batch of alloy.
Powder coating - Slight increase to boolit size. Very handy if you have a mold dropping a couple thou smaller than needed for a barrel. Low startup cost. ($20-30 for powder, an empty coffee can, and a cheap toaster oven.) I use harbor freight red and get great results. I didn't always, though. Got good with it because I'm cheap and insisted on using up the pound I had bought. (I'd recommend to anyone new to powder coating to get some quality stuff from Smoke4320, here on the forum.) It allows you to use a softer alloy. Your range scrap with 2% of that solder would be fine with traditional lube in your pistol. With powder coat, it would be fine in the 30-30 as well. (Someone else would have to speak to the 30-06 as I haven't loaded any for such an animal.) I've also been able to forgo gas checks in situations that would normally demand one...not that it is a replacement for a gas check, but it does give you more room before you absolutely have to have one. Once coated, you can store and/or handle them infinitely. You get to pick your color. I make pink boolits for my wife. Gets her to practice more with the pistol. (Can hardly pry her off the AR.) Not sure why that works on her. It's not like she can see them when she's shooting. But, I digress. Also makes it easier to tell her .380s from my 9mms. Someone who both lubes and powder coats may be able to help a little more with the "cons".
How far north of the cities? I'm in the Brainerd Lakes area. I'd be happy to show you my setup and give you some ideas you can twist to your own liking.

[Dragonheart]

Reading some of the post there is a lot of good casting information here, but to start with I would suggest you first read up on the hazards of handling lead. I know safety, bla, bal, bla, old stick in the mud, but lead poisoning is very serious for yourself, but it can be much worse for family members. Realize your choice of casting location is paramount as that area is going to be completely contaminated with lead dust and that dust can be easily transferred to clean locations and possibly to others as well as pets. It takes very little lead exposure to poison a small child and unfortunately they just don't get over it! Obviously,handling molten metal has its own hazards.

With that said, I would suggest reading up on the subject to get as much information on the process and equipment available.

My advice as an old timer is if you are really going to get into it then jump in with both feet and buy the best quality equipment and molds. If you get the best you never have to look back, the best will always have worth, the best will serve you well and usually for a lifetime, the best will be cheaper in the long run. If you can't afford it all at once then one piece at a time.

As far as what to buy, everyone has an opinion, including myself and that I will share if interested.

[David2011]

Tons of great advice so far. Beyond the safety aspect and alloying info the advice to flux with sawdust should not be taken lightly. It will make a difference. One other thought is that you should consider getting the best equipment you’re comfortable buying the first time. Buying inferior items and deciding soon thereafter that you need something better gets frustrating and expensive fast. There are things like the lead furnace/pot where a better one is much more expensive than say a Lee so get what you’re comfortable with. The flip side of that is that many of us use RCBS Pro Melt furnaces that are 30-40 years old and still working well.

[durango]

Regarding question #1=range scrap for $1.00/lb. You didn't say if it has been melted, fluxed and poured into ingots or if it's in raw form. If it's in ingot form, it's a fair deal for both buyer and seller. In raw form, a horrible deal for the buyer!
I've processed about 3 tons from 3 different modern eco-friendly indoor ranges and my experience tells me that it's not the way to go. You have to do a lot of work for the yield you'll receive and the left-over scrap has minimal value. That's not counting the number of live duds thrown down range and it only takes one to ruin a fun day!!
Welcome to the hobby, Steve

[Dragonheart]

Regarding question #1=range scrap for $1.00/lb. You didn't say if it has been melted, fluxed and poured into ingots or if it's in raw form. If it's in ingot form, it's a fair deal for both buyer and seller. In raw form, a horrible deal for the buyer!
I've processed about 3 tons from 3 different modern eco-friendly indoor ranges and my experience tells me that it's not the way to go. You have to do a lot of work for the yield you'll receive and the left-over scrap has minimal value. That's not counting the number of live duds thrown down range and it only takes one to ruin a fun day!!
Welcome to the hobby, Steve

Live duds are another really good reason I wear Explosive Handlers Coveralls, gloves, cap and full race respirator when processing. If molten lead hits skin it gonna leave a mark and it certainly is not worth losing an eye.
If you can get the range scrap for free it's worth for me, but I certainly wouldn't pay for it in the raw. I no longer test and processing 200+ pounds at a time it all seems to come out in the 10-11 range which works well for PC.

[diddlyv]

Nobody has said anything about how to control temperature on your fishfryer melting pot, the first thing is to get a casting thermometer and watch it. The lyman has various alloys temperature ranges marked on it. Not an expert but keeping the temperature as low as possible while still hot enough to melt things cannot be a bad idea. Heating your alloys to a high temperature is never a good idea and increases the rate at which things oxidize. Nasty zinc melts at a higher temperature than lead 787.2 degrees vs 621.4 and zinc wheel weights float on the molten lead alloy. No real reason to let mixture get over 700 degrees and really 650 should melt wheel weights just fine.

Tomorrow I pick up 100 lbs of pure lead ingots at $145. Kraig's list here in Phx has wheel weights as low as .70 per pound and pure lead mostly lead pipe at .50 a pound given the amount of work required to cut into small pieces to fit into a pot and the time and effort required to melt flux and cast the ingots went with the $145 as 100 lbs will last me a long time and I will be making 45 /70 bullets to shoot out of black powder guns a 30 or 20 to 1 soft alloy is the hot tip. With range lead, Lino type and wheel weights you can find ways to make just about any hardness you want but the antimony in the mix will have a bullet that my not perform the same as a pure lead tin bullet of equal hardness. I want to ensure my bullets fill the rifling of a 130 year old rifle that is probably in the .462 to .464 range being fed a nominal .458 bullet.

For your 30-06 what you alloy you want to cast will depend entirely on what you want the bullet to do. I shoot my 1898 Krag (30-40) and 03 Springfield 30-06 at steel targets 100, 200 and 300 yards away and want the bullet to be traveling as fast as possible to make the trajectory as flat as possible, additionally with the Krag I would like the sights to actually work so I use Montana Bullet works linotype gas checked bullet that I load to 2100 fps in the Krag and approximately the same speed in the 03 springfield as I don't think I can drive cast bullet 2700 feet per second to make the sights work.

Linotype is a pretty brittle bullet and is probably not the best choice for a hunting bullet a softer alloy based on Lead Tin vs Lead Tin and Antimony might be a better stroke

[Dragonheart]

I shoot 99% handguns and I powder coat range scrap, so alloy is of no concern to me as well as keeping the temperature low. As long as my 200+ pounds of ingots I get out of a single cook in my pot will completely fill out the mold cavity then life is simple.
Alloy mix is a concern if you lube, but not if you powder coat.

[diddlyv]

Dragonheart how much of a pain in the *** is powder coating say vs tumble lubing?

[wv109323]

If you are going to shoot 3-5k boolits a year,here is what I would suggest.
The 9mm and .40 calibers will be under 1200 fps. With that velocity WW will work fine. The 30-06 will require a harder alloy if you use without a gas check.
The 9mm is one of the hardest calibers I have cast for. That is due to a wide variance in bore diameters and chamber design. I ended up using a .358 mold for .38 caliber sixed to .358.
The two things that helped me the most was a hot plate to preheat molds and a PID controller to regulate my lead temps.
I would suggest at least 4 cavity molds for your pistol calibers. I use a bottom pour pot as I think it is quicker. With 4 cavity molds go with a 20 lb. pot
Powder coating is cheaper to use but far more time consuming than lubing. If you size your boolits, the lube can be applied then . If you pc and size that is another step added.
Lead prices vary from free to $1.50 a pound. Small tire shops are most helpful. A pizza for the employees will keep your foot in the door. You will need to sort the WW as there is a lot of steel and Zinc being used for weights.
Other sources for lead are old roof flashing, old lead plumbing, sail boat knells,and x-ray rooms. These are mostly pure lead but tin can be added.

[JBinMN]

Brkenarrow,

Welcome to CB.GL forum!


I missed this topic it seems or I would have welcomed you earlier!

I will keep my post here short. There is a lot of experienced folks & a multitude of info to be found, as you have likely figured out! I am not going to try to add much to what the others here already have offered for advice, since it is a lot to read & absorb.

What I will add is something that may help you if you did not already know it & that is about finding info on the forum.

On occasion, you might find it useful to use the search feature at the top of the pages in the right hand corner to look for answers from post & topics in the forum from years before. You can certainly use another search engine, and if you do , to help you narrow your search, if you put in the "search words"/"key words" in the search engine & add the "keywords" shown below to the search string of words you use, the search engine will keep the replies to within this Castboolits.Gunloads forum & give you links specific to here. The "keywords" to add are :

site:http://castboolits.gunloads.com , or, site:castboolits.gunloads.com


For example: looking for the keywords, "alloy", "tin", "lead", "ratio", you would put into the search engine the following keywords like below:

alloy tin lead ratio site:http://castboolits.gunloads.com ,

or,

alloy tin lead ratio site:castboolits.gunloads.com

and the search engine should return you all of the found links that contain the keywords you were looking for on this specific forum/website.


OK, That is it for me, for advice, unless you have a specific question(s) to ask. Hope it was helpful!


G'Luck, Have fun, be safe & once again, Welcome!

[Dragonheart]

Dragonheart how much of a pain in the *** is powder coating say vs tumble lubing?

In 2012 when Sandy Hook made getting any quantity of components impossible. I had been shooting in the IDPA so I was used to going through three to five hundred bullets a week. I went back to casting, rebuilt my old Lyman lube sizer and then I remembered why I quit casting in the first place. I tried Lee Alox once; I have several bottles of the stuff if anyone want it for free and is willing to pay the shipping or pick it up.

I was just about to throw in the towel and stop shooting when an old club member showed me some bullets he had powder coated. I became intrigued with PC and learned what I could about the process. But one thing for sure a Cool Whip container was not going to supply my needs.

I built a dedicated PC tumbler to coat 6-1/2 pounds of bullets at a time. I made multiple racks for my convection countertop oven so I could cook 2K+ bullets at a time. I converted a 30 convection wall to PC. I built a pneumatic bullet sizer that can size about 35 bullets a minute. I do insist of a full PC cure and stand the bullets on their base, the only slow point of my operation. But I can make a lot of PC bullets.

I can't speak for all, but if it were not for PC I would have gone back to buying commercial bullets rather than continuing to cast. I still find PC intriguing and not a pain at all; now retired it is a teriffic hobby. The advantages over any type of lube are great. I haven't purchased any jacketed bullets since I started, because I can make my own polymer jacketed bullets.

[Traffer]

Welcome.
My advise is less reading about it and more doing. This is not rocket science. You could melt lead in an old coffee can on a camp fire an cast bullets.