Real Black Blues

[indian joe]

I am with Indian Joe.
I don't like to jump to all these Fancy Modern Go to products.
I stick to basics.
Partly because it keeps the past alive, but also, because I am CHEAP

CHEAP ? is not a good word ......how about sensible?

[LAGS]

I just say, " Why Buy, When you can build "

[taco650]

I miss the days when every LGS had real Blackpowder on the shelf. Not one store in North Texas (AFAIK)sells it anymore. Not even the gougemeister Cabelas. A pound would last me a long time but I'd rather not have to pay Hazmat & shipping to end up paying close to $40/lb.

I just ordered 5lbs of Grafs own 3f-$102.60 which included shipping and hazmat. The only stipulation is it has to be signed for when delivered and both my wife and I work all day. Wonder if they'll take the dogs paw print????

[Nit Wit]

I use a liberal amount of spit and you can get lots of shots off. Give it a try, nothing like a wet sloppy ....patch!
Nit Wit

[Earlwb]

I don't remember anything but real black powder working in flintlocks. Is there a substitute for black powder that works in flintlocks or matchlocks for that matter?

[arcticap]

There's a fellow on youtube who loaded American Pioneer Powder 3F into the bore of his India made flintlock and using Goex 4F in the pan, he fired 10 shots without a misfire.



The caption for the video states: "Trying out some new powder, touted as a clean burning black powder substitute. I've read a huge difference of opinion about this powder, and several people flatly state that it will NOT work in a flintlock.

Well, here you have it. I fired 10 shots of varying powder charge, all lead ball, and not one misfire or failure to discharge. I think the FFFg is the right choice, the grain size is bigger than regular black powder, so having the FFFg probably helped with ignition here. Also, prime the pan with NORMAL black powder, it's not a big deal and doesn't make a big mess.

Clean up was a breeze and nearly zero fouling. Very happy."

The next 10 second video was posted by the same fellow 2 days later.



The caption states: "This is I think the 8th shot out of the musket without swabbing, cleaning or lube of any kind.

After 15 shots the barrel still looked 'brand new', this powder seems consistent and reliable, not a single misfire that day.

....also at 20 paces we hit the crock-pot every time.. .71 lead ball with paper cartridge wadding."

[indian joe]

There's a fellow on youtube who loaded American Pioneer Powder 3F into the bore of his India made flintlock and using Goex 4F in the pan, he fired 10 shots without a misfire.



The caption for the video states: "Trying out some new powder, touted as a clean burning black powder substitute. I've read a huge difference of opinion about this powder, and several people flatly state that it will NOT work in a flintlock.

Well, here you have it. I fired 10 shots of varying powder charge, all lead ball, and not one misfire or failure to discharge. I think the FFFg is the right choice, the grain size is bigger than regular black powder, so having the FFFg probably helped with ignition here. Also, prime the pan with NORMAL black powder, it's not a big deal and doesn't make a big mess.

Clean up was a breeze and nearly zero fouling. Very happy."

The next 10 second video was posted by the same fellow 2 days later.



The caption states: "This is I think the 8th shot out of the musket without swabbing, cleaning or lube of any kind.

After 15 shots the barrel still looked 'brand new', this powder seems consistent and reliable, not a single misfire that day.

....also at 20 paces we hit the crock-pot every time.. .71 lead ball with paper cartridge wadding."

Ho Hum!!! he used FFFFG real blackpowder in the pan..............had he used his fake powder in the priming pan ? woulda proved something. (one way or tother)

[arcticap]

Ho Hum!!! he used FFFFG real blackpowder in the pan..............had he used his fake powder in the priming pan ? woulda proved something. (one way or tother)

My post was in reply to Earlwb's question.

Most substitute powders require a booster charge of BP in the breech in order to fire.

I've heard some people say that fake powders can work in the pan sometimes, even if only once in a while.

I wouldn't want to have one with fake powder in the pan pointed at me to prove that it doesn't work.

It might take a bunch of tries but you never really know, right?

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=arcticap;4627042]My post was in reply to Earlwb's question.

Most substitute powders require a booster charge of BP in the breech in order to fire.

yes - which is why the story about subs not working in flintlocks - a generalisation ? most of em probably work with a decent FFFFG starter in the pan.
(something worth considering if black gets more expensive / more difficult to source)

[rfd]

anyone can get real black powder. at least so far, while we can mail order it - this may change mighty quick, given our current USA political climate. get it while ya can, folks.

yes, if you want a pound or two in order to "dabble" with trad muzzleloaders, it'll cost dearly. this is why you throw in with others (friends, club members, range members - put up an ad!) for a group order of at least a 25lb case and be done with it. far cheaper that way. there are more than a few good online sources for the holy black and prices can be a bit competitive at times. just do it and stop this "bp wannabe sub" nonsense.

as to flintlocks, yep, they absolutely require black in the pan. and there is absolutely no need for 4f or null b pan powder. one can of 3f and yer good to go for tube AND pan. one powder grain size is all ya need, and for me that's still 3f, for everything from .32 pistols to .62 smoothbores. i only use swiss, but olde eynsford (from goex) is a good one, and that age old staple - goex - surely will get the job done, too.

so quit messing around with that sub cr@p and get the real deal. yer guns will thank you, and you'll be delighted with the performance, ease of fouling control and gun maintenance, promise.

[indian joe]

anyone can get real black powder. at least so far, while we can mail order it - this may change mighty quick, given our current USA political climate. get it while ya can, folks.

yes, if you want a pound or two in order to "dabble" with trad muzzleloaders, it'll cost dearly. this is why you throw in with others (friends, club members, range members - put up an ad!) for a group order of at least a 25lb case and be done with it. far cheaper that way. there are more than a few good online sources for the holy black and prices can be a bit competitive at times. just do it and stop this "bp wannabe sub" nonsense.

as to flintlocks, yep, they absolutely require black in the pan. and there is absolutely no need for 4f or null b pan powder. one can of 3f and yer good to go for tube AND pan. one powder grain size is all ya need, and for me that's still 3f, for everything from .32 pistols to .62 smoothbores. i only use swiss, but olde eynsford (from goex) is a good one, and that age old staple - goex - surely will get the job done, too.

so quit messing around with that sub cr@p and get the real deal. yer guns will thank you, and you'll be delighted with the performance, ease of fouling control and gun maintenance, promise.

Just in case ya think I am promoting the fake powder deal - NO! - never used the stuff - I bought a can of Pyrodex years ago - then - "why did I do that ? "- never fired a shot of it and later sold it cheap to a bloke I didnt like (not really but makes the story better hey) .
I have the makins for powder - costs me about two bucks a pound and I intend never again to buy BP - I do use FFFF in the pan and plenty of it - saves me putting it back through the system for reprocessing.

[arcticap]

[QUOTE=indian joe;4627051]

My post was in reply to Earlwb's question.

Most substitute powders require a booster charge of BP in the breech in order to fire.

yes - which is why the story about subs not working in flintlocks - a generalisation ? most of em probably work with a decent FFFFG starter in the pan.
(something worth considering if black gets more expensive / more difficult to source)

I'm not sure about not needing duplex loads if using 4F in the pan.
There's a well known gentlemen who has posted extensively about shooting flintlocks with sub. powders and a booster charge which are often called "duplex loads".
He particularly liked to experiment and compare both granulations of Pyrodex and 777 along with different types of black powder and was well respected for it.
He just wanted people to know how each powder performed in a flintlock.
His screen name is Herb on the MLF and here's a sample range report:--->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/t.../#post-1261613

After taking many shots, he found that he didn't need to pick the vent at all.
He also recorded group sizes although that wasn't his primary purpose, and velocities.
When asked about needing to pull balls, he goes on to say in Post #10:

"Nothing brave about it.
Pyrodex and Triple 7 can be absolutely reliable in a flintlock.
Just a matter of using them correctly as I have shown here.
I have used them for testing purposes in .40, .45, .50, .54 and .58 caliber flintlocks (all I have).
The only reason I have ever had to pull a ball is if I forgot to load the powder first (black at that), a couple of times in many thousands of shots."

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=arcticap;4627396][QUOTE=indian joe;4627051]

I'm not sure about not needing duplex loads if using 4F in the pan.
There's a well known gentlemen who has posted extensively about shooting flintlocks with sub. powders and a booster charge which are often called "duplex loads".
He particularly liked to experiment and compare both granulations of Pyrodex and 777 along with different types of black powder and was well respected for it.
He just wanted people to know how each powder performed in a flintlock.
His screen name is Herb on the MLF and here's a sample range report:--->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/t.../#post-1261613

After taking many shots, he found that he didn't need to pick the vent at all.

hmmm I never pickesd a vent in 30 years of shooting a flinter - nor stoppered it or stuck a feather up it or any other of the gadgets/tricks that well dressed flint shooters do regularly - been told on occasion that I should do this - but been commented on more occasions how quick my flintlock fires.

Creating an air gap between pan charge and main charge never made any sense to me so I didnt do it - I do however go to some trouble to set my flinter up with a nice coned touch hole liner that puts the main charge right there at the edge of the pan - I came to the conclusion that stoppering the vent is another of those myths we encounter - maybe needed in a poorly designed military flinter ? dunno they not my game.

[charlie b]

Why not black? First, it is outlawed in my city. Can't own it at all. So, even if I mail ordered it I would be in violation. Who would 'catch' me? Don't know, don't care. Second, subs work fine for me since I shoot heavy conicals in a caplock.

FWIW, I have used Pyrodex for almost 40 years with no issues so why should I change?

I do not shoot a front loader for a 'connection to the past', I shoot it because it is a challenge to make small groups at 100yds and beyond.

[rfd]

Why not black? First, it is outlawed in my city. Can't own it at all. ...

that's insane government. surprised they even allow guns. living there would only support such insanity. time to move ...........

[charlie b]

I like where I live. Very gun friendly. I love having a county gun range that is open to all at no cost and has everything up to 1000yd ranges. Law enforcement is very pro gun as well (they shoot at the range with us common folks).

The issue came up when a two different nut cases were arrested. One was a lab employee who had been stealing explosives and stockpiling them. Another was a guy who was making explosives. He also had a stockpile of black powder. Both of these were conspiracy nutcases and had the signs of a future bomber.

Up to that point in time it was legal to own up to 25lb of explosives. After those two cases the laws were passed and black powder was included because of the one idiot.

During the discussions there were almost no interest in fighting the ruling on black powder. Probably because there are so few out here who shoot it. A couple of people spoke up, but, they were folks who normally shot at Raton, where black powder is legal (and you can buy it up there and in Albuquerque).