Real Black Blues

[hylander]

Rifle: T/C Hawken with .54 Cal. rebore by Robert.
Balls: 530 Speer
Patch: .020 Duck, lubed with 50/50 Mutton Tallow/Olive Oil.
70-80gr. Powder

So I have not used real black for over 20 years, I know Blasphemy Shocked
What I use to use was Elephant, however I do not remember this bad of an issue.
Anyway, I came into a pound of Schuetzen FF.
I can't even get a second loading without swabbing.
Well, I can get a second loading but my wrist's can't take the pounding, almost can't get the second load all the way down.
With 777 I can get at least 8-12 loadings before a swabbing is necessary.
When swabbing the patch is caked in thick crud left behind after firing, with 777 it is just light crud left behind.
With the real black I also get the crud ring down just before the ball seats, I do not get this with 777.
Also Accuracy is more consistent.
Is this an issue with just Schuetzen or all Real Black?
I really want to like real black but so far I just see no benefit other than price.

[oconeedan]

Real black powder is dirty. I can get 2 or 3 shots without having to swab, but at the range, swab every shot. The benefit? Real black powder goes bang easier than substitutes, I think it is more reliable. Also very consistent. I have never tried 777, so can't comment about it.
I do know that after a hang fire (first shot in cold barrel) on a deer with substitute, I never had a problem with real black powder. Dan

[indian joe]

Rifle: T/C Hawken with .54 Cal. rebore by Robert.
Balls: 530 Speer
Patch: .020 Duck, lubed with 50/50 Mutton Tallow/Olive Oil.
70-80gr. Powder

So I have not used real black for over 20 years, I know Blasphemy Shocked
What I use to use was Elephant, however I do not remember this bad of an issue.
Anyway, I came into a pound of Schuetzen FF.
I can't even get a second loading without swabbing.
Well, I can get a second loading but my wrist's can't take the pounding, almost can't get the second load all the way down.
With 777 I can get at least 8-12 loadings before a swabbing is necessary.
When swabbing the patch is caked in thick crud left behind after firing, with 777 it is just light crud left behind.
With the real black I also get the crud ring down just before the ball seats, I do not get this with 777.
Also Accuracy is more consistent.
Is this an issue with just Schuetzen or all Real Black?
I really want to like real black but so far I just see no benefit other than price.

You have a tight patch / ball combo and a thick sticky lube - with that load chain your results are what I would expect
Schuetzen burns dirty and slow - seems to be less so in cartridge loads with a heavy boolit over it.
If you are shooting on the range - ditch the grease lube and use moose milk and wet the patch well with it - squeeze the excess out before you load but that patch still needs to be wet - I would also back off on the patch - try some 15 thou pillow ticking.
Try some Goex old E powder
shouldnt need to bash the load down to get it to shoot accurate - that is a myth.
Also its a new bore - its gonna crud up and be tight to load till you get a couple hundred shots down it.

[WehrmannsGeweher]

Try Alliant Black as it's the best sub. Smells and smokes like BP but can shoot all day.

[Mr Peabody]

I'd try a different lube.

[webfoot10]

I shoot a .54 cal flintlock,I use 80 grs GOEX 3f blackpowder and .530 roundball wrapped
in .015 thick cotton patching. For lube I use either pure lard (no salt) or rendered venison
tallow. I have gone as many as 15 shots without swabbing the bore. But swabbing does
make the loading easier. I would try some 3f black and the lard and a thinner patch in
your rifle. You could also use Mel-Fry cooking oil for patch lube if you can find it. Just
dampen your patch with oil and squeeze out any excess oil. Lubes the barrel when you
load. Also roll your roundballs to remove the spu, makes loading easier. As you break
in the barrel loading will become easier. You could also try a hotter cap CCI's or RWS.
webfoot10

[hylander]

Thanks for the replies,
I just finished lapping the bore.
No sprue with Speer balls.
.015 Patches blow out, .020 are reusable, loading is easy with .020 and 777, only tight with real black.
My lube is pretty thin and I use very little, but will try something different.
So Schuetzen is one of the dirtier, I could pick up some regular Goex, that is the only powder available around here.
Will try CCI Mag caps, but pretty sure Remington's are just as hot?.

[Edward]

Thanks for the replies,
I just finished lapping the bore.
No sprue with Speer balls.
.015 Patches blow out, .020 are reusable, loading is easy with .020 and 777, only tight with real black.
My lube is pretty thin and I use very little, but will try something different.
So Schuetzen is one of the dirtier, I could pick up some regular Goex, that is the only powder available around here.
Will try CCI Mag caps, but pretty sure Remington's are just as hot?.

The key is lube is thin but use very little, mine are squishing at the muzzle for target . I patch a 600 ball (Actual 597) in a 610 bore .Ticking .24 -28 soaked in bear oil or neatsfoot will allow shooting without wiping all day .I use a card over the powder (OE 2 or3F) just because I can .I am surprised as Bob works on smoothing muzzle (By hand) for easy loading (I asked) ,my barrel is brand new from him and as stated loads well from the day I got it and gets better every time it"s fired. And that"s my experience /Ed

[LAGS]

Thanks Edward for the loading info.
It gives me a starting point for my barrel of the same configuration that Mr. Hoyt is doing for me right now.
I may play with Factory Powder when I get the barrel back, but my intent is to work up a load with my Homemade powder.
But unless I can get a line on some Willow Charcoal, I do expect that the powder will be burning Dirtier than the Store bought stuff.
And I may end up with the same situation that the OP posted, and have to swab the barrel every shot.

[Eddie2002]

I've been using Bore Butter for a lube and have found that soaking the patch with it helps reduce the need for swabbing between shots. Even with my home made BP which can foul a bore in three shots with a damp patch soaking the patch with lube allows me to shoot about a dozen shots before needing to clean the bore.

[KCSO]

The big trick here is using a soft lube that will keep the fouling soft. It must be a natural lube as any petroleum product will make glue instead of fouling. I use bear grease but lanolin will work also, a damp patch and with a round ball twist 54 I can get 5-6 accurate shots off without cleaning. You will need to experiment to see what works best. Reasonalble charges are a must also for targets I use 55 grains of FFG for 25 and 50 and then up to 75-80 depending on the gun for hunting and 100 yard work. There is no reason to use more as this load will go through a buff with no problem. On Griz it won't matter about fouling as you won't get a second shot anyway!

[bedbugbilly]

First thing I though of when I read your post was - patch thickness and lube.

If it works with your substitute BP - then I'd stick with that combination as you know it works.
when you switch to real BP - then you're going to have to change thins up as already suggested.

I've always used DuPont/Goex - primarily because that's what i started with 55 some years ago and that's what is available for me . . . but different folks have different experiences no matter which brand of BP they use. With Goex - when I was hunting I could easily get a second and third loading off without spit patching beween shots. When shooting targets, etc. - I always spit patched the bore between shots - didn't make any difference if it was a .32, .36, .40, .50, .54 or .58 - I just got much better accuracy and never had an issue with hard reloading when I did that step.

I have never used a BP substitute - not because i don't like it or have something against it - I just have always had true black available. I smiled when you mentioned "Elephant". Many years ago, when I was shooting N-SSA, that came out or at least the suppliers started carrying it. We had a dealer give each of us on the team a complimentary 1# can of 2F to try in our rifled muskets - IIRC, it was a bit cheaper than DuPont at the time. Some of the guys tried it and hated it as it gave more fouling than the DuPont that most of us were used to shooting. In fact, I still have the untapped can of it kicking around. I gather that you probably had good luck with Elephant and that's a good thing. I kind of wonder if it doesn't depend on the "batch run" of some BP as to just how clean or dirty it shoots . . I don't know.

Good luck in your experimenting with different lubes and you might want to also experiment with different patching.

An afterthought - I have watched folks struggle to load (with real BP) when there is fouling. You want a good gas seal with the patch, but I have actually watched a guy at Friendship who used a wood mallet to whack his load home - I asked him why one time and he proceeded to lecture me on the necessity of a "tight" load" and "proper gas seal" with the rifling . .. O.K. . . . to each their own. I then asked him if he wasn't shooting a soft lead round ball and he was . . . so I asked him about the accuracy of a round ball that had been beaten out of shapepe while he whacked on it to get it down the bore. He told me it was not and issue and it was a very accurate load . . . funny thing though . . . all the years I watched him do that, I never saw him win or even place in a match. It's all about the right patch/lube/balls issue to your particular gun when using real BP . . never used a sub so can't speak to that. I have several .45 caliber rifles now and normally I would use a .440 ball in them . . . but with the fouling I get . . which I don't consider bad . . . and the patching/lube I use . . . I have found a .437 ball works just fine and loads much easier. One of the barrels is a Numeric barrel and they were known for having "tight bores" . .. the other is a TC Seneca. At some point I am going to buy a container of substitute just to try it . . . but I have a feeling that I will have to "change things up" - whether it be lube/ball/charge as it will probably shoot much differently.

[indian joe]

Real black powder is dirty. I can get 2 or 3 shots without having to swab, but at the range, swab every shot. The benefit? Real black powder goes bang easier than substitutes, I think it is more reliable. Also very consistent. I have never tried 777, so can't comment about it.
I do know that after a hang fire (first shot in cold barrel) on a deer with substitute, I never had a problem with real black powder. Dan

If you are loading for hunting dont even read this - it does not apply
I have never ever cleaned my ML during a match - we shoot ten, or thirteen / ten to count, target matches, I always put a full charge foul shot in the berm to start - so 11 or 14 shots and quite confident I could shoot double that without fouling up. The fact that I could not beat the top half dozen shooters in our country at the time had absolutely nothing to do with a dirty bore.
Got my first MLoader in 1988 (a kit gun ) and it came with 100round ball, calico patches, and a bottle of commercial green gunk lube, I would get 6 or 7 or sometimes 8 shots nice on paper before it started splatter grouping - yeah clean it after five, fire another fouler and make a good ten shot group. Tried a couple other bought lubes with same result - this was un acceptable to me as was cleaning between shots - I went back to basics and was fortunate enough to get both of Sam Fadalas blackpowder books - read about moose milk lube there have used it ever since.
There are 15 members in our local BP club - me and another bloke pretty much own first and second place by a decent margin - he was one of those handful I could not beat - as good a standup rifleman as any in the country - but the aging process has been a bit kinder to me than him so we are about equal now - we both shoot moose milk lube - load it and shoot it - easy as pie - funy thing is neither of us or both combined have been able to convince other guys in our own club - who are having obvious fouling problems - cant convince em to ditch their commercial greasy lubes and follow suit with some cutting oil and water??????

[Rich/WIS]

I also use moose milk for practice/fun shooting and do not have the fouling issues. Have gone 20-30 shots before wiping, even then was more to get ahead of the fouling problem rather than fix it. This was with 2f and 3f Goex and Elephant and Pyrodex RS. For hunting I use the pre-lubed TC or CVA patches. Rifles involved were 45, 50 and 54.

[Fly]

I have been shooting black powder guns since the late 1970,s. That is what they are, BLACK POWDER guns. If a person wants to shoot
something other than BP in them, so be it. But if I had to shoot a fake bp I would sell every bp fire arm I own. I have many Military rifles
also. It is like shooting in the past for me. To each there own. JMOHOP

Fly

[LAGS]

I too agree with Fly.
That is why I started making my own BP.
At least that way, I have a more dependable supply for my hobby.
It may not be the best around, but back in the day, they had similar stuff not always factory powder to work with.
I feel I was born at least 100 years too late, and like to keep the past alive.
Not really Live in the past, or dwell in the past, but remember how we got to where we are today.

[Fly]

Yes Lags you are spot on. Why people shoot a flintlock over a cartridge rifle? Same deal, I hunted with a flintier during muzzle loading
as gun season back in the day. We had no modern muzzle loaders back then. Don,t get me wrong, I,m not putting anyone down for
what they chose to hunt or shoot. That's just me. I love the smell of real BP & all the smoke. I can only imagine what a real old west
shoot out inside a building back in the day. After a few shots no one could see the other from the smoke. Not like a movie for sure.
Oh well I need to shut up! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Fly

[rfd]

for a given bore diameter, groove diameter, and groove cut (flat or round), there is a combination of ball diameter, patch weave density and thickness, patch lube, and BLACK powder brand/granulation that will afford good accuracy along with no fouling control for at least a few shots to no fouling control needed at all. you need to do some amount of testing because of all the aforementioned combinations. it is entirely possible to have almost no fouling control and good accuracy with even an offshore gun with a patent breech - been there, done that more than a few times. it takes experimenting of components. if you keep at it, you'll get it wired sooner than later. stick with the black. there's a fix in there somewhere. promise.

[Boogieman]

Home made moose milk, 1part water soluble oil, 1part murphy's oil soap and 8 parts water. I can shoot a 50 shot match without wiping

[okshooter]

Home made moose milk, 1part water soluble oil, 1part murphy's oil soap and 8 parts water. I can shoot a 50 shot match without wiping

Boogieman,
Do you use this wet or soak your patch material and let it dry?