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Thread: How loose is to loose?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master


    rfd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gellot Wilde View Post
    ... So you are saying with the right bullets PP in assembles ammo will match if not better GG bullets without the need for breech seating?
    absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gellot Wilde View Post
    And that's just it, that would be the goal as I already have a greaser load that's a real tack driver but I like the original aspect of the PP bullet but don't really want to mess about with breech seating. If you are saying it's worth pursuing then I'd be very keen to see some targets/groups you have achieved with them.
    messing around with PPBs under real BP is all about "doing it the olde tyme way", The Paper Patch Way. for the most part, expecting such loads to work perfectly out of the gate just ain't gonna happen. there is much to understand and apply, there are unique instances to traverse, and typically there will be some dues to pay. and ... don't trust all the stuff you read in PPB media, either. it's a kind of puzzle, this PPB thing for supreme accuracy, and what works for each of us will depend on the pieces we're playing with and trying to make fit. IME with PPBs over the last 6 years or so, out of the gate, 6moa at 200 yards is no big deal and with a bit of tweaking it'll drop to 4moa. going tighter will require time and effort, and maybe even some more pesos spent. all of this is almost always about personal goals, interests, and ... perseverance. it can be done.

    i shot this target face at 200 yards a month or so ago, testing out two different slicks - a 403 grain Accurate Molds stubby from Tom, and that classic 523 grain BACO Jim443530E elliptical. the rifle is a much worked-on pedersoli that started out as a .40-65 and several gunsmiths blew it out to a .45-70 with a special PPB chamber. lee shaver really did the best work on it, with a new barrel and chamber liner. it also sports his super grade vernier and spirit level globe. this was it's first baptism, with the first shots taken and recorded with a caldwell target camera. nothing at all spectacular or to write home about, but aside from my fair shooting that session, the gun and load have potential - i took second place with it at my club's fall buff rifle 200 yard match earlier this month, where the winner was shooting a .40-70ss and greasers with smokeless 4198 powder. my load was the BACO 523 over a .060 LDPE wad barely compressed 1/32" over 78.5 grains of swiss 1-1/2f, federal match primers. the PPB sits 1/10" into the case mouth. the top target holes were from the 403's, the lower holes from the 523's, never adjusted the sights, cold but clear day, with the usual swirling winds at our mountain top range. notice the fly that moves around the face during the 523 hits.




  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gellot Wilde View Post
    Believe me Brent, these guys are no slouches and it would be nice for me to be able to simply dismiss their advice as they aren't doing it right.

    I also set out with the wrong size bullet as I had it, but so far the wrong way is out doing the 'right' way in accuracy.

    I use PP in my M/L match rifle (Don Brown) with very good success indeed and it would be nice to get the same sort of accuracy with the cartridge rifle without the fuss of breech seating as we only have 30minutes for 13 shots.
    I am sure they do know THEIR stuff. But they don't know all the OTHER stuff. I started my shooting of these rifles with benchrest schuetzen breech seaters. They were extremely good, and they dabbled in paper patching and uniformly did not like it. They all wrapped their bullets to groove diameter and when they shot them fixed, they, of course, had to load them deep into the case and when they breech seated, it was just a hassle and wasn't worth the effort. They also didn't even bother to try properly loaded paper-patched bullets because they had never seen it done and knew it couldn't work. Until it did.

    What they did not do was wrap them to LAND diameter, not groove diameter, and then load them not more than 0.1" into the case. Such a cartridge, with the rifle bullet shape and powder charge has no gap, but is effectively a breech seated bullet. It works extremely well.

    I too have a Don Brown rifle. Albeit, mine has a few deviations from his standard rifle. It uses exactly the same bullet and powder charge as my cartridge rifles and will shoot just accurately (~ 1 MOA). Why shouldn't it? So far as the bullet knows, there really is no difference in the two types of rifles. I have shot 100-5x @200 with it in competition as well as 99-?x @300 and in the low 90s at 1000 with it.

    Properly loaded, your paper patched bullets can shoot with the breech seaters pretty handily. With some work and planning for fouling control, you can easily shoot 13/30 minutes. We regularly shoot 15 with unlimited sighters in breech loader matches.

  3. #43
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    Again, I don't really shoot groups once my initial load development is done. So this first picture is of a score card from an 800 yard target I shot last year at a Lodi, Wisconsin long range match shot at 800, 900 & 1000 yards. Brent was spotting for me and he did OK I guess.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	9-9-18 800 yards (2).jpg 
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    This was shot with my .45-70 Hepburn with a Danielson paper patch chamber. The load was follows:

    530 grain ppb
    .060 LDPE wad
    83.0 grains Swiss 1 1/2
    Star Line brass
    Remington 2 1/2 pistol primers
    The .444 diameter bullet is wrapped with .002" 9# 100% cotton onionskin paper and is seated .080" in the case mouth. I wipe between shot with 10% mixture of water soluble oil and distilled water using bore pigs and one dry patch that I push thru in one pass of my wiping stick. This rifle has a globe front sight and a good quality vernier tang sight.

    I have shot scores in the upper 90 several times with this rifle and load at all three distances including the 98-4X I shot two years ago at 1000 yards with no coaching, reading the conditions on my own as were required in that particular match, the American Creedmoor Cup.

    I used this same setup to win the American Creedmoor Cup and the Wisconsin State Championship in back to back matches in May of this year when we had some really tough conditions for both matches.

    No, I don't shoot for groups much anymore, but I think the results shooting paper patch bullets that I and others like Brent have had in actual matches speaks of a HIGH level of accuracy that such loads can achieve. Brent's load is very similar to mine and our loading procedures are nearly identical.

    My avatar shows just some of the hardware that paper patch bullets have won for me in recent years. Yeah, I'd say they work!

    This is a picture of my Hepburn and a load cartridge along with some other stuff, including a silver medal I won with this setup.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As for competing against smokeless powder shooters, when you stretch the distance out you'll find that smokeless can not compete with real gun powder. It just isn't capable of the consistency shot to shot that black powder is.

    BPTR is a great sport, it's just better when shot with black powder and paper patch bullets!
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    absolutely.



    messing around with PPBs under real BP is all about "doing it the olde tyme way", The Paper Patch Way. for the most part, expecting such loads to work perfectly out of the gate just ain't gonna happen. there is much to understand and apply, there are unique instances to traverse, and typically there will be some dues to pay. and ... don't trust all the stuff you read in PPB media, either. it's a kind of puzzle, this PPB thing for supreme accuracy, and what works for each of us will depend on the pieces we're playing with and trying to make fit. IME with PPBs over the last 6 years or so, out of the gate, 6moa at 200 yards is no big deal and with a bit of tweaking it'll drop to 4moa. going tighter will require time and effort, and maybe even some more pesos spent. all of this is almost always about personal goals, interests, and ... perseverance. it can be done.

    i shot this target face at 200 yards a month or so ago, testing out two different slicks - a 403 grain Accurate Molds stubby from Tom, and that classic 523 grain BACO Jim443530E elliptical. the rifle is a much worked-on pedersoli that started out as a .40-65 and several gunsmiths blew it out to a .45-70 with a special PPB chamber. lee shaver really did the best work on it, with a new barrel and chamber liner. it also sports his super grade vernier and spirit level globe. this was it's first baptism, with the first shots taken and recorded with a caldwell target camera. nothing at all spectacular or to write home about, but aside from my fair shooting that session, the gun and load have potential - i took second place with it at my club's fall buff rifle 200 yard match earlier this month, where the winner was shooting a .40-70ss and greasers with smokeless 4198 powder. my load was the BACO 523 over a .060 LDPE wad barely compressed 1/32" over 78.5 grains of swiss 1-1/2f, federal match primers. the PPB sits 1/10" into the case mouth. the top target holes were from the 403's, the lower holes from the 523's, never adjusted the sights, cold but clear day, with the usual swirling winds at our mountain top range. notice the fly that moves around the face during the 523 hits.



    That's some very, very nice shooting indeed RFD

    Lee Shaver makes some great sights, have a couple of his front sights already and he's a nice guy to talk with too.
    Don't follow me, I'm lost too!

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Distant Thunder View Post
    Again, I don't really shoot groups once my initial load development is done. So this first picture is of a score card from an 800 yard target I shot last year at a Lodi, Wisconsin long range match shot at 800, 900 & 1000 yards. Brent was spotting for me and he did OK I guess.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	9-9-18 800 yards (2).jpg 
Views:	18 
Size:	31.6 KB 
ID:	250509


    This was shot with my .45-70 Hepburn with a Danielson paper patch chamber. The load was follows:

    530 grain ppb
    .060 LDPE wad
    83.0 grains Swiss 1 1/2
    Star Line brass
    Remington 2 1/2 pistol primers
    The .444 diameter bullet is wrapped with .002" 9# 100% cotton onionskin paper and is seated .080" in the case mouth. I wipe between shot with 10% mixture of water soluble oil and distilled water using bore pigs and one dry patch that I push thru in one pass of my wiping stick. This rifle has a globe front sight and a good quality vernier tang sight.

    I have shot scores in the upper 90 several times with this rifle and load at all three distances including the 98-4X I shot two years ago at 1000 yards with no coaching, reading the conditions on my own as were required in that particular match, the American Creedmoor Cup.

    I used this same setup to win the American Creedmoor Cup and the Wisconsin State Championship in back to back matches in May of this year when we had some really tough conditions for both matches.

    No, I don't shoot for groups much anymore, but I think the results shooting paper patch bullets that I and others like Brent have had in actual matches speaks of a HIGH level of accuracy that such loads can achieve. Brent's load is very similar to mine and our loading procedures are nearly identical.

    My avatar shows just some of the hardware that paper patch bullets have won for me in recent years. Yeah, I'd say they work!

    This is a picture of my Hepburn and a load cartridge along with some other stuff, including a silver medal I won with this setup.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Hepurn #001.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	52.6 KB 
ID:	250510

    As for competing against smokeless powder shooters, when you stretch the distance out you'll find that smokeless can not compete with real gun powder. It just isn't capable of the consistency shot to shot that black powder is.

    BPTR is a great sport, it's just better when shot with black powder and paper patch bullets!

    That is a stunning looking rifle you have there Jim, a real beauty.

    I agree that PPB certainly adds to the whole enjoyment of black powder rifle shooting.
    Don't follow me, I'm lost too!

  6. #46
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    GW,

    Thanks. It shoots as good as it looks too!
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    I am sure they do know THEIR stuff. But they don't know all the OTHER stuff. I started my shooting of these rifles with benchrest schuetzen breech seaters. They were extremely good, and they dabbled in paper patching and uniformly did not like it. They all wrapped their bullets to groove diameter and when they shot them fixed, they, of course, had to load them deep into the case and when they breech seated, it was just a hassle and wasn't worth the effort. They also didn't even bother to try properly loaded paper-patched bullets because they had never seen it done and knew it couldn't work. Until it did.

    What they did not do was wrap them to LAND diameter, not groove diameter, and then load them not more than 0.1" into the case. Such a cartridge, with the rifle bullet shape and powder charge has no gap, but is effectively a breech seated bullet. It works extremely well.

    I too have a Don Brown rifle. Albeit, mine has a few deviations from his standard rifle. It uses exactly the same bullet and powder charge as my cartridge rifles and will shoot just accurately (~ 1 MOA). Why shouldn't it? So far as the bullet knows, there really is no difference in the two types of rifles. I have shot 100-5x @200 with it in competition as well as 99-?x @300 and in the low 90s at 1000 with it.

    Properly loaded, your paper patched bullets can shoot with the breech seaters pretty handily. With some work and planning for fouling control, you can easily shoot 13/30 minutes. We regularly shoot 15 with unlimited sighters in breech loader matches.
    I agree, I think it can be done but it needs assembled ammunition that's why I'm interested to know if it will work well without the fuss with breech seating.

    Another thing was they told me they were duplexing their loads...but with BP, so Swiss No.2 folled by Swiss 3 or 4?? They seemed to be saying that Swiss 4 (which I swear by in the 45-90) wasn't fast enough??



    Reading all these great posts is certainly encouraging me to continue the quest for sure.
    Don't follow me, I'm lost too!

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Distant Thunder View Post
    GW,

    Thanks. It shoots as good as it looks too!
    I can believe that Jim.

    I note you are on pistol primers too which I have always favoured over everything else.
    Don't follow me, I'm lost too!

  9. #49
    Boolit Master


    rfd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gellot Wilde View Post
    That's some very, very nice shooting indeed RFD ...
    actually, no, it's not. matches are won by shooting dynamic groups (knowing when to move the rear sight), not by shooting static groups that miss the 10 ring, let alone the X ring.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    actually, no, it's not. matches are won by shooting dynamic groups (knowing when to move the rear sight), not by shooting static groups that miss the 10 ring, let alone the X ring.

    Fair comment.

    I'll change that to 'that's some very, very, nicely grouped shots.
    Don't follow me, I'm lost too!

  11. #51
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Gellot,

    Shooting good groups on paper can be established a lot easier with good conditions while working up loads with a new rifle or powder types. Usually If I want to see what the rifle or load is capable of I pick the conditions that are calm with good light. The light for me is very important because age is creeping up on me making it hard to get a sight picture that is needed.
    Below are two targets I shot with new rifles working up loads. The three in one frame, the .44-2.6/.44-100 REM. I'm most proud of was shot with my 25 pound rifle when I got it and worked up the first loads. Those are sub MOA 5 shots past 100 meters and this rifle has also shot sub moa at 200 mts. The other target was shot with my new .40-65 at 200 yards working up loads.
    I patch my bullets that are snug to bore, about 1/2 thousands over bore and the bullet is seated in the case 1/8" with a slight taper crimp so they stay in when loading.
    By average these groups in these two photo's don't come on demand every time I shoot but these rifles show me that they are capable of doing it and to me this is all I need to know and the rest is up to me to make the rifle shoot to it's capability.
    Shooting a 2 MOA group at extended ranges is not out of the normal if a shooter gets out and learns how to properly load and shoot well in the conditions. 2 MOA BLK powder target will be in the 10 ring at 1000 yards and very capable of winning a match.
    If a GG bullet would out perform a PP during a match or just busting bowling pins I would sure as heck be using them
    Kurt

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Lead pot; 11-04-2019 at 11:33 AM.

  12. #52
    Those are great Kurt, very inspiring.

    I was all ready to get to work on a new bullet after having an existing mold modified by a local guy who after telling him exactly what I wanted decided to make his own calculations based on his purely grease groove experiences I guess.

    I now have a mold that I asked for .446" for my wife's Pedersoli dropping a slick that is .451 with the oddest nose profile I have ever seen in my life.

    Basically he has ruined a first class mold. Why he decided not to do what I asked is still a total mystery to me.

    I now need to buy a new mold, so I'm one happy chappie as you may well imagine.
    Don't follow me, I'm lost too!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check