yet another screwdriver flinter "kit"

[LAGS]

Once I get moved over to the new house, I will do some investigating and see if the Bolster is actually threaded into the breech plug on the Traditions.
I think all I will have to do is run a rod down the barrel until it stops on the end of the breech plug, then mark the rod.
Pull the rod out and lay it next to the barrel and see where the end of the breech plug in in relation to the Bolster or in your case, the touch hole or liner.

I would say that if the touch hole liner is into the breech plug, then chances are they Threaded it in like the Bolster on the CVA, instead of pressing it in.
It will take me a couple of weeks to get my stuff unpacked so I can do some investigating for you.
But Perhaps ,there is another member who has a Traditions already available to do some checking for you.
But from what I remember about my Traditions was the breech plug is like a Plumbing Pipe Plug with out any kind of Flange, and only has the Tang Hook sticking out the back end of the barrel.
That doesn't give you much material to put a wrench on if the breech plug stops and is Torqued to an internal shoulder inside the barrel with the Bolster either threaded into the breech plug, or threaded into only the barrel Just Ahead of the front end of the breech Plug

[rfd]

hey on the bright side, the traditions plugs dont self eject like those lyman recalls LOL.

no worse, or maybe less worse than traditions and cva recalls and accidents ...

https://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm

... but then again, jon, you have yer personal agenda with traditions to deal with. good luck.

[rfd]

Once I get moved over to the new house, I will do some investigating and see if the Bolster is actually threaded into the breech plug on the Traditions.
I think all I will have to do is run a rod down the barrel until it stops on the end of the breech plug, then mark the rod.
Pull the rod out and lay it next to the barrel and see where the end of the breech plug in in relation to the Bolster or in your case, the touch hole or liner.

I would say that if the touch hole liner is into the breech plug, then chances are they Threaded it in like the Bolster on the CVA, instead of pressing it in.
It will take me a couple of weeks to get my stuff unpacked so I can do some investigating for you.
But Perhaps ,there is another member who has a Traditions already available to do some checking for you.
But from what I remember about my Traditions was the breech plug is like a Plumbing Pipe Plug with out any kind of Flange, and only has the Tang Hook sticking out the back end of the barrel.
That doesn't give you much material to put a wrench on if the breech plug stops and is Torqued to an internal shoulder inside the barrel with the Bolster either threaded into the breech plug, or threaded into only the barrel Just Ahead of the front end of the breech Plug

thanx for your help, much obliged. i'll pass on this gun, ain't worth my time and trouble. truth is, as nobade posted, i have far better onshore trad muzzys anyway.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I do enjoy the heck out of my lil traditions st.louis hawken. Shoots true, drops game with ease and looks purdy.

Sorry to hear it didnt work out in the end, but for both parties, im sure its for the best.

[indian joe]

why in the world would any manufacturer want to bush a liner - that's extra work and materials for what?

unless the barrel steel is cr@p and won't support a liner. i need to dig deeper into this issue.

I have had five CVA barrels as flinters - cant speak to the supposed bushing but I would need considerable convincing that a CVA barrel came from the factory with a push in touch hole bushing - more like someone sawed the bloster off in the process of doing a cr@p conversion of cap to flint.

RFD the barrel steel is GOOD unless they done went and spoiled it in recent years - just screw the bloster out and make a coned touch hole liner to fit the threads. Never had a problem (nor heard of one from other guys that did this) - I dont load mouse phfart loads in my MLoaders either - I stoke em.

I do not now, nor will I ever, understand your need to de breech these gunz - you must have seen some problem that I have not encountered in 30 years of shooting frontloaders - it makes even less sense to me on a CVA where the bolster thread is tapped through the extended end of the breech plug - that would take some genius level work to get re aligned perfectly. We all got our "things" we do tho just sayin this is not one of mine.

I have three flinters in circulation now - the one I shoot most and do ok with too, has a little Dikar lock on it, commonly regarded as a cr@p lock, but most times I come off the line from shooting it I get comments from guys with far superior equipment like how fast the little gun works, another is a CVA 50 frontier, just a knockabout gun with a Buchele lock - dont know who made that but its a nice lock, American style geometry - with a roller frizzen and stirrup mainspring - then a halfway built CVA kentucky barrel with one of the better L&R locks (maybe a manton - nope its the Late English lock) and a nice curly maple stock that I picked up in a deal - Flinters are fun and if ya do ok with one in an open event they all think yr a hero.


I never took much trouble tuning locks - figure a lot of blokes spend energy doing that to overcome deficiencies in other parts of the ignition system. If somethin needs fixing I will do it and I always do the coned touch hole liner - want to get the pan charge as close to the main as possible - get that right and I reckon an average lock can work pretty darn good.

Have seen a few conversions done by just sawing off the bolster and tapping it for a touch hole liner - it makes for slow ignition and it takes some work to fix.

[rfd]

joe, i do hear ya on all accounts and i appreciate yer posting on this. i'm a stickler for greasing any and all threads into the tube. just insures it will be easy to remove at later date for ... who knows, maybe no good reason at all? famous last words, maybe. but to have a "pipe stub cap" breech plug, that has little purchase for wrench or socket, and to cut off a bolster and drill and tap into it for a touch hole liner, that's just a plain shoddy product. they shudda done what ya said - unscrew the entire bolster and screwed in a touch hole liner. it's probable that cutting off the bolster was easier than making a special touch hole liner threading. i don't doubt at all the rest of the gun is good stuff. but heck, to me it's like throwing money away i should be spending on lead ingots, flints and powder, so i'll pass.

[indian joe]

thanx for your help, much obliged. i'll pass on this gun, ain't worth my time and trouble. truth is, as nobade posted, i have far better onshore trad muzzys anyway.

Plenty nicer lookin guns (for way more dollars) - nobody made a better barrel than the 1980's CVA - always thought it sad when CVA lost their way into inlines ......................

[indian joe]

joe, i do hear ya on all accounts and i appreciate yer posting on this. i'm a stickler for greasing any and all threads into the tube. just insures it will be easy to remove at later date for ... who knows, maybe no good reason at all? famous last words, maybe. but to have a "pipe stub cap" breech plug, that has little purchase for wrench or socket, and to cut off a bolster and drill and tap into it for a touch hole liner, that's just a plain shoddy product. they shudda done what ya said - unscrew the entire bolster and screwed in a touch hole liner. it's probable that cutting off the bolster was easier than making a special touch hole liner threading. i don't doubt at all the rest of the gun is good stuff. but heck, to me it's like throwing money away i should be spending on lead ingots, flints and powder, so i'll pass.

I think early days they made a sales point out of screwing the bolster through the breech plug - Its much stronger! - yeah it is but - so once they took that track with a safer claim - pretty hard to come back from it with a flinter?

- like I said I never had a factory CVA flinter - saw a few of those sawed bolster conversions and wasnt impressed - but pull the bolster and do it right - they work fine - also has the advantage you can convert that barrel back easy any time you like.

Heres a tip ya might use sometime - best way for removing a CVA bolster - leave the nipple in tight - get an injector spanner (the heavy ring spanner with a slot in it that diesel mechanics use on the injector pipes on little old diesel tractors) I had a set and one of em fits exactly over a CVA bolster with the nipple neat in the slot - the nipple gives leverage to turn it - they come out without a mark on them - no other way of doin this that even comes close.

[rfd]

a feller on another forum had one of these buggered traditions rifles (a percussion gun that traditions retro-fitted to flint) and here's the results of a lotta shooting ...



notice the blackened gap around the "bushing" where bp residue infiltrated the threads of the bolster that was cut off at the barrel so that the sleeve for the screw-in touch hole liner could be drilled and tapped.

[KCSO]

Breech plug removal on CVA and a lot of Spanish guns...

They are NOT made to be removed. The breech plug is screwed in and then the drum is drilled and tapped and a drum is fitted and then the flash hole is put in from the muzzle with a special drill. If the drum has no flats for removal do nt take it out or you will have a batch of machine work to do. I usually just yank the whole outfit and refit a proper breech plug and drum. I do have a drill made up to redrill the factory jobs when necessary.

[FrankG]

At one time the breech plugs and bolsters threads were epoxied into barrel !

[OverMax]

School trained heavy mechanic. Not a Carpenter_or gunsmith. My preference? Buy than try.
The problem is: Being my tool box's have all sizes of hammers with-in belonging to a Old Wrench whom has no_o0O patience.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I have thousands of rounds though a traditions kentucky flintlock with that bushing and it hasnt opened up like that at all. User abuse kills many muzzle loaders. After taking a closer look and seeing the deep file marks in that barrel, that probably was a home made flintlock job. You should see the cva "flintlock" barrel I have out in the shop that some hack job did! Woowee!

The CVA/Traditions drum set up is a huge step up from the original days drums where 3 or 4 threads held it onto the barrel.

[triggerhappy243]

after reading this entire thread.............. I am glad I bought American.

[rfd]

american "onshore" trad muzzleloaders will almost always sport a classic flat breech plug, whereas almost all offhsore trad muzzleloaders will sport some variation of the "patent" breech plug, and there are far more than a few types in terms of design and maintenance (not so much functionality). all patent breech plugs will have an "ante-chamber" or "flue" or both. the bugaboo for all patent breeches is just that - the restriction of the ante-chamber/flue, where the bore is reduced, and where that "feature" needs to be separately addressed for both fouling control and cleaning.

why even have a patent breech? the theory is that this design, for both percussion and flint ignition systems, will allow faster ignition. in my 60+ years of actually using AND building traditional muzzleloaders, i disagree with that theory. if one thinks that a patent breech adds to a guns performance, the trade off will be the added issue of getting down into a patent breech's restricted hole to care for both fouling control and cleaning. a bore sized jag won't do that and a separate brush/jag/whatever will be needed. this added work for fouling control may not be needed - lots depends on how a gun is loaded and with what load components, not to mention that all guns are unique in some ways. but having a patent breech means something to think about that's not a concern with a classic flat faced breech plug. being aware of all this is the first step, the rest is YMMV.

[Buzzard II]

im not sure how the process goes, could be something like a cylinder liner in an engine where one section is heated and the other is put in nitrogen to freeze and shrink it, then when all done, everything is set and ready to go. I'll see if I can find a spare flintlock barrel out in the shop and take a look at it.

And the cylinder head keeps it there. Gas replacement liners and diesel wet liners are held in by the heads.
Good reading but these guns aren't for me. To each his own.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

why ***** and moan? If you don't like it, move on to something else that suites your needs.

Lymans plug/breech set up for me has always been an issue, especially with the tiny powder channel holes constantly plugging up and hang/mis firing. Then after they started to snap off (recall last year ) when firing, that cleared up any thought in the back of my head. Stick with what I've been shooting all these years.


I mean after all, could buy one of those made in india master pieces if you really want something to complain about

[triggerhappy243]

why ***** and moan? If you don't like it, move on to something else that suites your needs.

Lymans plug/breech set up for me has always been an issue, especially with the tiny powder channel holes constantly plugging up and hang/mis firing. Then after they started to snap off (recall last year ) when firing, that cleared up any thought in the back of my head. Stick with what I've been shooting all these years.


I mean after all, could buy one of those made in india master pieces if you really want something to complain about

how many rounds were fired thru this piece?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I believe the owner said the 6th or 7th shot on a brand new gun. This was part of a lyman recall last year. They recalled their entire line due to this.

[triggerhappy243]

bad steel. lyman used to be a top notch rifle.