Riddle me this: Shorter handle on single stage press

[468]

I am considering using a shorter handle on my Hornady Classic press. I don't load anything that requires much leverage, so figured the shorter handle would reduce the throw, and be a bit more efficient. I called Hornady to check the price on a new handle(about $35) and mentioned what I intended to do. I didn't order it...was going to consider other options.

5 minutes later I get a call back from the Hornady rep advising that the engineers said DO NOT do this. You may damage the machine, and void warranty. I replied that if I did, "they" would never know it, and how would it damage the machine? I don't load anything that requires much leverage (I have a Rockchucker for that). The sales rep said it would overstress the linkage where the arm attaches. She offered for me to speak to an engineer, but none were available at the time. This was a very friendly exchange. I just wanted to wrap my head around the "over stress the linkage" issue.

What difference would there be? Within normal, hand gun caliber parameters, what could cause a problem?

Please educate me.

[gareth96]

So with a shorter handle you are going to cause more stress to the linkage? errrr....

My only thought would be that with a shorter handle you won't have the 'feel' you do with the longer one. So maybe seating primers wouldn't give you the same feel and might result in primers not being fully seated, or maybe a little crushed.

[Conditor22]

Hornady's response is really surprising. Many manufacturers offer different length handles for their presses. I'm no rocket scientist, but I see no way you could damage a press by using a shorter handle.

[44magLeo]

I think perhaps the sales rep misunderstood what you meant. A longer handle might overstress the linkages. A shorter handle would put less stress on the linkage. Just basic math tells you that.
Changing the length of the handle on some of Lee's presses is one of there selling points.
For heavy duty jobs leave the handle out long, for less strenuous jobs, like handguns, shorten the handle. The shorter handle throw can speed up things a bit. Less arm movement may help out us older folks with arm or shoulder problems.
What I might do got the hardware store, buy a length of round steel rod the right size, thread it as needed to fit the press. Cut to the length you want. Drilling most any round ball for a knob on the handle isn't hard to do. A pool ball, Golf ball. A wood round ball from the same hardware store. A bit of epoxy.
Leo

[JBinMN]

I am betting it was a "failure to communicate" error on their end from the sales rep to the engineer. There seems to be no reason that a shorter arm would cause issues that I can think of right now. Although I am not familiar with that press & do not own one, as well as I am not an mechanical engineer, but my Dad was and maybe just a little bit of knowing how "mechanical advantage using leverage" rubbed off on me, & I reckon I am old enough with enough experience using leverage, to make my opinion.

Do as ya like, but I would just use a shorter handle anyway.


G'Luck!

[RED BEAR]

Sounds like a load to me. I use a short handle on my lee press for that exact reason . A shorter handle can't put more stress than a long handle. Have had a few discussions with hornady customer service . As a result i will never purchase anything with there name on it again.

[country gent]

I believe one of the advantages of the shorter handle and lessened leverage would be a better feel of what your doing. One of the things the short handle for the coax is recommended for. The shorter travel is also a benefit. The faster movement may be a drawback though. Having seen handles made both longer and shorter over the years on presses and other equipment I don't see where a shorter handle will stress linkages. I could see a shorter handle causing clearance issues with travel and the operating hand at times. ( Some bottom ram press the shorter handle will put the hand very close to the press frame possibly making for occasional bruised knuckles). Both the coax and summit presses have short handles offered for them from the manufacturers.

I would make one and try it see how it works most press handles are a simple threaded affair or pipe set in a socket and pinned in place. As I said you may want to bend it for an offset on bottom mounter rams for hand clearance. If it dosnt work you can always go back to the original handle.

[DonMountain]

There are at least two components or forces applied to the pivot point on the handle. Moment and shear. If you reduce the handle length and apply the same moment, you will increase the shear. And I am sure you will severely damage that press. So you would have to either increase the pivot pin size to handle the shear loadings, and the casting the handle is screwed into, or use stronger and harder metals to allow the much larger stresses. So, I recommend not doing it if you are going to be sizing 50 BMG brass down to much shorter 22 caliber pistol rounds and you are Hulk Hogan. On the other hand I am not Hulk Hogan so I would do it. Most people are not strong enough to break a modern press no mater what you do to it.

[jeepvet]

That lady must have worked for a health insurance company in a past life. I get the same kind of answers from them.

Remember the old saying, "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see."

[468]

Sooo....I called them again. None of the engineers were available, so I spoke to a tech help guy. He couldn’t explain why there would be an issue. I suggested Hornady consider offering shorter handles for their single stage presses, as do some others.

I’m gonna make one and see how it works...as soon as I get my press back from Hornady after repair.

[Winger Ed.]

Its a lever.

The handle being shorter can't hurt the press any more than a shorter pry bar
would do more damage using it on the same thing as a long one.

[1hole]

It takes a certain amount of the toggle block's camming movement/rotation to accomplish its task, levers are designed long enough to make operating it easy for most folk but that's all.

Buy or improvise the length you want. Shortening the operating lever will certainly increase the needed work on your end but it won't mean a thing to the toggle block ... nor anything else.

[David2011]

Makes no sense. RCBS offers a standard and a short handle for the Summit. Reduced length = reduced leverage = reduced load on the press. To do the same task such as seating bullets in a given cartridge the load on the press will remain constant; you just have to press a little harder on the shorter lever.

[rbuck351]

It takes a given amount of force at the die to do it's job, resizing being the most. How long a handle you use to apply this same given force to the linkage makes no difference to the linkage. It does to your arm though. With easy to size cases, no problem for your arm and certainly no problem for the press. Go for it.

[mdi]

Well, my plain old horse sense tells me "what the Hell difference would it make?". If you exert enough force to F/L size a large case, how would the force on the linkage differ if the initial force is exerted 6" away from the pivot point or 16" away?

[fatboy]

sound more like a CYA/ Liability answer than an Engineering answer. and the only CYA is that any change is bad, so we cannot endorse bad!

[lightman]

It sounds like a mis communication. Either that or that engineer was not at the top of his graduating class!

[468]

I did speak to a mechanical engineer friend of mine. He said a shorter lever, in theory, would put more load on the pivot point...further theorizing that a lever half as long as the original would require twice as much force to achieve the same work.

But, obviously, I would be no where near any maximum effort level, or test any limits, under this scenario.

Noodle on that.

[onelight]

I did speak to a mechanical engineer friend of mine. He said a shorter lever, in theory, would put more load on the pivot point...further theorizing that a lever half as long as the original would require twice as much force to achieve the same work.

But, obviously, I would be no where near any maximum effort level, or test any limits, under this scenario.

Noodle on that.

I still don’t understand it would certainly put more pressure on your hand but from there to the case all parts are bearing the same exact load. I need more learning to understand this math.

[M-Tecs]

I still don’t understand it would certainly put more pressure on your hand but from there to the case all parts are bearing the same exact load. I need more learning to understand this math.

The longer the handle the more leverage you will have and the shorter the less leverage you have. That is simple physics. The claim that there will more load on the pivot is correct in the case of the pivot pin on a press, however, this additional load is a non factor. It could be a factor on something like a kids teeter-totter. Example would be placing 100 pounds on both sides. It will balance and the force on the pivot will be 200 pounds plus the weight of the teeter bar. Now shorten ONE side by half. The shorter side will need an addition 100 pounds to balance so the load on the pivot is 300 pounds plus the weight of the teeter bar. If you keep shortening the one side the more weight you have to add to get to balance. At some point you may get enough weight that the pivot will fail. The extreme example would if one side of the teeter-totter is 10 feet long and the other side is much shorter. At 10 feet verse 1 foot the short side need 1,000 pounds to balance the 100 pounds. At 1 inch verse 10 feet you will need 12,000 pounds to balance the 100 pounds.

Since most presses now use a compound leverage system so this is even less of a factor. This compound leverage can produce thousands of pounds of force on the pivot. Adding an additional 20 or 30 pounds of downward force by choking up on the handle or using a short handle is a non factor in the case of a press.