How do you know which of the pair went where? Interesting data, glad you did the control. Looks that the “2ball” gives roughly twice the dispersion of a single projectile. Not impressive, but not useless either! I will definately be playing with these, thanks for the updates.
“You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos
The back bullet is either a real wadcutter or a round flat nose bullet loaded base forward. Either way, the back bullet cuts a full caliber hole while the front cuts a much smaller hole. Here's a front and a back -- same bullet, front flying as intended, back flying base-forward. Unfortunately, those two weren't from the same shot.Originally Posted by rking22
Attachment 240409
Last edited by pettypace; 04-25-2019 at 05:49 PM.
Hey Pettypace,
I've been following and enjoying your thread. So much so that I'm going play with some duplex 44 special loads in my 2.5" Bulldog. Have an old Lee 116 gr WC mold that has been gathering dust!
Thanks and keep on trucking.
pettypace
Over a decade I was considering multi-projectile loads for .38/.357. I bought a few molds but never pursued it much further. Life got in the way, and now I'm getting old and moving on to other projects. I do have the following molds I'd sell at cost:
1 cavity Lyman 358101, 75 gn WC - $45
6 cavity Lee TL358-86-WC, a Cast Boolit GB, 86 gr WC - $100
4 cavity 360-75/100, a Cast Boolit GB, all full WC, 2 are 75 gr and 2 are 100 gr - $100
Ya it caught me by surprise when I developed that load. The 15 gr of Unique I had pressure problems with didn't have near as much recoil as this load. I need to Chrono it for more so I know the exact ballistics
PS if you try that load it's not a published load from a book it's a homemade load that is compressed slightly
Do so @ your own risk
Last edited by Ozark mike; 04-25-2019 at 07:20 PM.
Those who would trade freedom for safety deserves neither and will lose both
Thanks, Charlie.
If I didn't already have a 105 grain WC, I'd be all over one or more of these. I hope someone grabs them so I don't have to ponder it too much.
A roll of B27 silhouette targets arrived yesterday. So, more or less centering the "patterns," I transferred the hits from the two bullseye targets fired at 25 yards (see post #100) to the back of a B27. The bigger "holes" are from the back WC bullets, the smaller from the front RF bullet. The point of aim was close to the lower "9".
Attachment 240424
Last edited by pettypace; 04-29-2019 at 07:12 AM.
Here are the results of a penetration test of a load I've dubbed the "Super-Duper Police" load -- a 105 grain WC loaded under a 95 grain RF at about 700 ft/s. So, it's a total of 200 grains (like the .38 Super Police) -- but a duplex load (hence, the "Duper").
I fired a total of six rounds of the duplex load. The first shot never separated. It made a single, small entrance hole, a single, small exit hole, and a narrow, dead straight track in between. Without tumbling, the predicted penetration of a 200 grain .38 at 700 ft/s is over 30". So , it's no surprise that this shot was not stopped by the two ammo can sized blocks of gel totaling 22".
The next five shots of the duplex load all separated before entering the gel with the back WC making a noticeably bigger entrance hole. As shown in the picture below, the five wadcutters all stopped in the gel at about 15". Surprisingly, the five front bullets all penetrated the full 22" of gel.
CAUTION! One of those front bullets hit a 2"x10" about 5 yards behind the gel, made a dent about 1/4" deep into the wood and bounced straight back hitting in the ankle one of my shooting buddies standing behind me.
I also fired the same two "calibration" rounds that I've been using to convince myself that the Clear Ballistic gel has not gone soft with re-casting. As before, the 95 grain Silvertip penetrated about 10" and the 90 grain Hornady Critical Defense about 9". So the gel still shows those two premium JHPs to be marginal at best.
Attachment 240426
Last edited by pettypace; 04-26-2019 at 06:17 PM.
In an early post in this thread, the idea of a two-projectile self-defense load was proclaimed to be "...a loser on every level". Although I've never been much impressed by such proclamations, I did figure that the level of penetration was likely to be a problem. What I never figured was that the problem might be over-penetration. But in the last gel test, the front projectiles penetrated 22" of gel and at least one of them exited with enough velocity to put a good dent in a 2"x10" and bounce back with enough steam to get the attention of a fellow shooter. Whether that level of penetration is good, bad, or indifferent might be a matter for debate. But it certainly meets the FBI's definition of over-penetration.
But it's also over-penetration in the sense that it's over the predicted penetration.
For the load tested, the Schwartz equation predicts the front 95 grain RF bullet should penetrate about 16.5". So, the actual penetration is beating that by over 33%. I suppose the equation could be wrong or my gel could be soft. But both the equation and my gel "calibration" test agree closely with the Lucky Gunner results for the Hornady 90 grain Critical Defense load. Not definitive, certainly. But indicative.
It's not hard to believe that some sort of "drafting" goes on when two projectiles traverse the gel in close proximity in both time and space. But it's a little hard to see how the front bullets should gain more than the back bullets (which only beat the prediction by about 15%).
Last edited by pettypace; 04-27-2019 at 12:24 PM.
Still curious about the potential of two 80ish grain wadcutters loaded together at 850 fps for hitting to the sights rather than high, staying within SAAMI spec while doing so, and having both make it past 12 inches. Having more or less full caliber frontal on both projectiles may be a plus.
I need to get such a wadcutter for my own testing, or just shut up and stick to my double ball loads.
35remington,
I think you're right about getting 80 grainers to penetrate beyond 12". For an 80 grain WC @ 850 ft/s, the Schwartz equation predicts just under 12". But I'm convinced now that there's some sort of "drafting" going on when the two projectiles are close together in both time and space.
I shot some more gel today with two 105 grain wadcutters loaded base-to-base at about 625 ft/s.
A cylinder full gave the following penetrations: 14.5"(tumbled), 16"(exited), 16"(exited), 17", 17.5", 17.5", 18", 18.5", 19"(exited), and 19.5". These all penetrated considerably more than the equation predicted.
NOTE: At the time of this test I thought there was an inch-to-inch correspondence between penetration in Clear Ballistic gel and in validated 10% ordnance gel. I've since learned that this is not true. Roughly speaking, bullet penetration will be less in 10% ordnance gel than in C-B gel. Recent testing has shown that penetration in real gel would likely be only about 80% of what I measured above. Making that correction would give the front bullets above an average penetration of about 14.5" in 10% ordnance gel.
You're also right that the full caliber meplat of two wadcutters is a plus. Here's MacPherson's chart for mass (in grams) of crushed tissue for various calibers and bullets. Except for the JHPs, the calculations are done for only the first 14" of a deeply penetrating (18"+) bullet. That's to hedge against the bullet running out of gas at the end of the wound cavity.
Attachment 240165
Of note is the big difference between "JHP maximum" and everything else and also between the "Cylinder" (a sharp edged WC) and "All Others."
Who knows what goes on in terms of crushed tissue when two projectiles hit close together and almost simultaneously. I'm not prepared to claim that the projectiles I shot today would each crush 24 grams of tissue for a total of 48 grams per shot. But I'm pretty sure that each pair of projectiles must be crushing more than 24 grams -- and perhaps considerably more. I can't see any reason why a pair of sharp edged wadcutters with the combined cross-sectional area of a .50 caliber bullet shouldn't crush at least as much tissue as a JHP that expands to .50 caliber and isn't likely to penetrate 17". But how you prove that, I don't know.
Last edited by pettypace; 02-20-2020 at 06:58 PM. Reason: Added calibration note for C-B gel.
guess I look at it like this. If a bear was coming at me and I had my choice between a 25acp that I could shoot the bear with 3 times or a 44 mag I could only shoot once there isn't a day in the next century where I would pick the 25.
I agree. Because that's pushing the 25 wayyyyyyyy past it's capabilities. one round of 44 vs 6 rounds of 38 might be a better comparison.
The dual wadcutters as shown above are doing a pretty good job on gel in relation to human incapacitation.
We could easily toss out all kinds of cartridge combinations and I would say that I would rather have 6 rounds of dual 100 grain wadcutters that 1 round of 500 S&W during a 2 legged attack and play to the hit probability end of things.
Here are some details from yesterday's gel test:
I think this is the 4th re-melt of the Clear Ballistic gel. I cut the original 6"x6"x16" block in half and re-cast in standard GI ammo cans to get two blocks about 5"x5.5"x11". Placed end-to-end this gives a smaller "target" area but allows for a full 22" of penetration.
To determine if re-melting is somehow "softening" the gel, I've been firing two different premium JHP rounds as a sort pseudo calibration test. Those two rounds are visible low in the left hand gel block. The 95 grain +P Silvertip penetrated about 9.25" and a 90 grain Hornady Critical Defense stopped at 10.5". This is consistent with previous testing. If either of these two rounds ever makes it out of the first ammo can, it's probably time for some new gel.
Against my better judgement, I let a buddy fire one round of some old four-projectile loads he had gathering dust in his loading room. I figured these would never make it out of the first block to confuse the picture of the duplex test rounds in the second block. I figured wrong. One of these four projectiles is visible high in the left block and the other three followed a downward sloping path into the second block, stopping as a group of three between 14" and 15" inches. I'll have some more info on these after I cut them out of the gel.
Attachment 240947
The duplex load being tested consisted of two 105 grain wadcutters loaded base-to-base over a modest charge of Hercules 2400 to about 625 ft/s. I fired five shots from the 2" snubby. Of the ten projectiles, three exited the block of gel after 16", 16", and 19" of penetration. It's worth noting that all ten projectiles followed straight line trajectories and the three that exited the gel were simply fired too close to the edge of the blocks.
Of the seven projectiles that stayed in the gel, one "tumbled" and stopped sideways at about 14.5" just below the knot of three from the quad load. The other six projectiles penetrated to 17", 17.5", 17.5", 18", 18.5", and 19".
NOTE: At the time of this test I thought there was an inch-to-inch correspondence between penetration in Clear Ballistic gel and in validated 10% ordnance gel. I've since learned that this is not true. Roughly speaking, bullet penetration will be less in 10% ordnance gel than in C-B gel. Recent testing has shown that penetration in real gel would likely be only about 80% of what I measured above. Making that correction would give the front bullets above an average penetration of about 14" in 10% ordnance gel.
Last edited by pettypace; 02-20-2020 at 07:01 PM. Reason: Added calibration note for C-B gel.
That's an obvious choice!
Another obvious choice (from the gel test above) is whether I'd prefer the 95 grain +P Silvertip that expanded perfectly and penetrated only about 9", or two 105 grain wadcutters that didn't have to expand and penetrated over 17". For a charging bear that choice probably wouldn't make much difference. But for a likely civilian self-defense scenario (which is, after all, the subject of this thread) it could make all the difference in the world.
But I find less obvious choices more entertaining to think about. Nobody has to buy 90 grain Hornady Critical Defense Lite ammo (that can't break down the front door of the FBI penetration wheelhouse) when they could buy 135 grain Gold Dots that might expand to .50 caliber and might penetrate to 14". Leaving the charging bear in the woods where it belongs, now the choice is more difficult. Just how does a single 135 grain Gold Dot that expands to (maybe) .50 caliber and penetrates to (maybe) 14" compare to two 105 grain wadcutters that start out totaling .50 caliber and penetrate to 17"? To me, that choice is worth serious consideration.
Last edited by pettypace; 05-02-2019 at 11:28 AM.
Well, you can probably put the 135 Gold Dot in the black of a bullseye target @ 10 yards. How about those two 105 grain WC's?Just how does a single 135 grain Gold Dot that expands to (maybe) .50 caliber and penetrates to (maybe) 14" compare to two 105 grain wadcutters that start out totaling .50 caliber and penetrate to 17"? To me, that choice is worth serious consideration.
I haven't fired the two 105 grain WC load for accuracy, yet. And I don't know which bullseye target you have in mind. But I'll give that load a go at 10 yards next time I get to the range and post the results.
The standard 3" bullseye target.
Attachment 241027Attachment 241028Attachment 241029
Three consecutive 10 shot groups @ 10 yards. Fired DA from a S&W 38/44 Outdoorsman, two-hand hold, deliberate slow fire. 30 shots, 60 hits, most well within a 3" circle.
I am impressed! You have that grouping better than I would have ever expected.
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