Two-Projectile Loads in Snubby for Self-Defense

[35remington]

Then the other thing that comes to mind is if the wadcutters were 80 grains each instead of 70. I just may get off my duff and try that myself.

[pettypace]

Sorta looks like Remington’s double ball load with an equivalent seating depth (case space) to a 160 grain bullet driven to Plus P pressures of 800-850 fps would be the wheel to semi reinvent if you do the double projectile thing. A bonus would be that it would hit to fixed sights.

At least mine do in 32 and 38.

Which of the very short double wadcutters penetrated further....top or bottom?

I also cannot help but wonder if penetration would differ if both wadcutters had their little button noses forward. Any appearance of tumbling in the gel in the two recovered?

Although I've been shooting handguns for well over 50 years, my interest in the .38 snubby is recent. Back in the good ol' days, on the very few occasions I felt the possible need for self defense, a 97 Wnchester or a 1917 Smith seemed appropriate. But I can't run so fast now. So the urge to carry is more frequent and I've found that neither the '97 nor the '17 goes in or out of the pocket as well as a hammerless J-frame.

When I first started thinking about what to feed a snubby, I was surprised to see in a chart on BrassFetcher's site that the old Remingon Multi-Ball load (as well as target wadcutters) did a better job of meeting FBI penetration standards than any of the premium JHP ammo he tested. Which is a long-winded way of saying that the Remington Multiballs got me started on this project.

I'm not 100% sure which of the two 70 grain WCs penetrated farther. I should be able to tell for sure when I cut the bullets out of the gel. But I've been lazy and I'm hoping to take some better pictures before I cut. I can't tell from the orientation of the bullets in the gel, because neither bullet points head on and I have no idea how much turning they may have done. On the other hand, the higher entrance hole leads to the deeper penetration and I suspect that was the back bullet.

Both of the 70 grain WCs showed signs of tumbling. But with such a short bullet, who knows what effect that might have on penetration. Ditto with the button nose pointing fore or aft. I suppose either could be tested. But given that it took close to 1000 ft/s (and some signs of pushing the pressure limits) to barely reach the 12" FBI minimum penetration standards, I'm not excited about the 70 grain wadcutter. The 80 grain WC that you mentioned should give better penetration. But I doubt it will be much better. On the other hand, I'm sure there are better powders than 4756 for this -- Longshot, maybe?

[onelight]

My concern is dispersion of the bullets at ranges longer than 7 to 10 yards . We are responsible for every bullet , as range increases under the best of circumstances my accuracy decreases .
So if they have good penetration they might be a good choice in certain environments but I need all the help in bullet placement I can get I would hate to cause harm to someone because I chose a tool I could not control well even at the range.
I gave this some thought when a man who helps with security at our church showed me his Judge loaded with buckshot .

[pettypace]

My concern is dispersion of the bullets at ranges longer than 7 to 10 yards . We are responsible for every bullet , as range increases under the best of circumstances my accuracy decreases .
So if they have good penetration they might be a good choice in certain environments but I need all the help in bullet placement I can get I would hate to cause harm to someone because I chose a tool I could not control well even at the range.
I gave this some thought when a man who helps with security at our church showed me his Judge loaded with buckshot .

Accuracy is a valid concern that I can't yet address with conviction. So far, I haven't done any accuracy testing or tuning at all. That's next on the agenda.

But I'm optimistic. In chronographing loads, I've shot plenty of targets at 5 yards, usually a cylinderful at a time. In this shooting, I've tried to maintain a consistent 6 o'clock hold on the X ring so I could get an idea of how the load shot with respect to point of aim and the spread between the front and back bullets. For what it's worth in terms of accuracy, probably not much, these five-shot groups (10 holes) were generally about 1-1/2" center-to-center of widest shots. Here's an example that's probably better than average, but more or less typical. Even at just 5 yards, I'd be hard-pressed to shoot a better 10 shot group with a DAO snubby with good target ammo.

Attachment 238878

Also, you should check the targets posted earlier in this thread by rintinglen (post #6). These aren't at long-range, either. But they show that a three-projectile load, even with a total of over 300 grains, is still capable of decent accuracy.

You mentioned having some concern about the possibility of errant shots from a Judge loaded with buckshot. Given some of the .410 loads that could be fired from the Judge, your concern may be well-founded. Shooting the Bull has a good video on the Judge that's worth watching.

[onelight]

I am impressed with the groups in this thread and what you guys are working up . The only experience I have is with the .410 pistols and buck shot by 20 yards they are all over the place.
If nothing else , it is an interesting experiment . And I enjoy seeing the results.
Thanks

[35remington]

The orientation of the rifling marks should say which was top and which was bottom. Do pass that along after you cut them out. If 12 inches or more can be obtained with both projectiles at the needed weight that would be food for thought. I like the idea of two projectiles of near standard weight if penetration can be brought into the acceptable range as that shoots to the sights.

Speaking of rounball loads, the dispersion is not such that projectiles are whizzing off into the blue.
I am not sure that saying a background safe for a single bullet is unsafe for a biprojectile load is accurate. In many instances the standard bullet presents more downrange danger.

Reason I said that is I spent considerable time lobbing double round ball loads at a pond downslope near Unionville Missouri. It was up to two hundred plus yards off depending upon where I stood. I have a pretty good idea of what they do at distance.

[owejia]

One positive way to identify which bullets went which direction in the gelatin or wet paper would be to powder coat them different colors. I have the Noe 73 grain wad cutter mould and with powder coating they will gain a couple more grs of weight. This experiment is in my future testing. Will try the round balls [different colors] in my Nagants. If used for nothing else but target practice or might be useful shooting varmints.

[onelight]

I don’t know if any of this info will translate to 38 loads with bullets but there is a lot of info on 000 buck at similar velocities in gel.
http://www.410handguns.com/410_gel_results.html

[Earlwb]

The Hornady Critical Defense 410 shells look really good in the gel tests too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtdYVk4ugHc
They shoot a 41 caliber bullet and two 35 caliber buckshot balls.

[dverna]

I am impressed with the accuracy achieved. I expected much more dispersion.

Interesting read as well

[owejia]

Shot five of the 70 gr double ball test loads today out of my 38 chiefs special at 10 yds they tended to separate about 5/8 in center to center, this was with 4 gr hp 38, making up more test loads using powder coated balls plus 73 gr wcs. Will test fire them into water filled plastic jugs to see how much penetration maybe tomorrow. Believe this just may be my self defense load if they have good penetration, maybe a 73 gr wc with 70 gr rb on top, or two wc or two stacked rb. More testing to do.

[str8wal]

So, what advantage do two 70 grain projectiles impacting within 5/8" of each other have over one 140 grain projectile?

[Baltimoreed]

The old question about which can you throw farther or harder, a ping pong ball or a golf ball? Weight matters. I also experimented with multiple .45 disc loads in my reloading youth. They kinda work but the judicial liability of using them as an actual self defense load negates them to just an interesting experiment. I’ll use factory hp.

[rking22]

Read something, many years ago, that multiple simultaneous impacts (think buckshot)creates more shock than the same impacts separated by a time span. Also those 2 , if they have the penetration, equal a .50 caliber in cross sectional area. The “double tap” with each pull of the trigger. 10 shot J frame,,

[pettypace]

Shot five of the 70 gr double ball test loads today out of my 38 chiefs special at 10 yds they tended to separate about 5/8 in center to center, this was with 4 gr hp 38, making up more test loads using powder coated balls plus 73 gr wcs. Will test fire them into water filled plastic jugs to see how much penetration maybe tomorrow. Believe this just may be my self defense load if they have good penetration, maybe a 73 gr wc with 70 gr rb on top, or two wc or two stacked rb. More testing to do.

There's a good youtube clip on a two-ball .38 load. Google "38 Special 2 Ball Duplex Loads"

I'm anxious to see your testing results!

If you find penetration with the 73 grain WC is marginal or inadequate, don't give up on the idea. I think two Lee TL356-95RF, loaded base-to-base will do the trick. What you can gain in penetration from the extra bullet weight will more than compensate for what you lose in velocity.

[Petrol & Powder]

If your goal is to make two holes per shot in a piece of paper, then two projectiles per casing has merit.
In the realm of self defense this concept is a complete loser.
Each individual projectile is lighter than the single projectile and initially traveling no faster than that single, heavier projectile. You're gaining NOTHING.

If you want TWO projectiles in your adversary that penetrate deep enough to stop the attack - PULL THE **** TRIGGER TWICE !

[Michael J. Spangler]

If your goal is to make two holes per shot in a piece of paper, then two projectiles per casing has merit.
In the realm of self defense this concept is a complete loser.
Each individual projectile is lighter than the single projectile and initially traveling no faster than that single, heavier projectile. You're gaining NOTHING.

If you want TWO projectiles in your adversary that penetrate deep enough to stop the attack - PULL THE **** TRIGGER TWICE !

So a 12 gauge with buckshot is useless for home defense and we should all use slugs by that merit.
I think a lot of people are missing the point that both projectiles will penetrate the depth needed.

[Petrol & Powder]

So a 12 gauge with buckshot is useless for home defense and we should all use slugs by that merit.
I think a lot of people are missing the point that both projectiles will penetrate the depth needed.

I'll reprint the first line of this thread for your benefit:
Two-Projectile Loads in Snubby for Self-Defense


And I disagree that both projectiles will penetrate the depth needed when we're talking about sub-100 grain projectiles fired from a 38 Special subnose.

[DougGuy]

So a 12 gauge with buckshot is useless for home defense and we should all use slugs by that merit.
I think a lot of people are missing the point that both projectiles will penetrate the depth needed.

The 12ga is a factory load that is already loaded to supersonic velocities am I right? What's the velocity of a high brass 3" 00 buck load? 1200fps at the very least out of a 20" cylinder bore barrel maybe?

Each projectile in this scenario is not traveling slower because it was loaded on top of another ball into a small pistol case with a compensated charge of powder, it is traveling at it's full advertised velocity and will penetrate accordingly. The balls in the pistol case travel much slower, theoretically the same velocity as a single projectile of the same weight, so they lack the energy to penetrate the same way that the same ball in the 12ga load penetrates, because they are traveling much slower. This will definitely limit penetration.

The fact that they split apart and each takes a separate channel in the target lessens their weight, which again will definitely limit penetration. A single projectile, double the weight of the two balls, will penetrate a LOT farther, it's simply bound by the laws of physics, and the wound channel bears that out. You cannot explain this fact out of the equation.

[onelight]

If they get what is commonly considered acceptable penetration 12 to 16” and both hit the intended target then you are trading maybe expansion from 2” 38 iffy at best for two 38 wound channels from the 2 bullet load. Kinda like shooting them twice with a 380 each pull of the trigger.
Interesting