308 load with IMR4064

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Like Larry said, there is not enough data to draww any valid conclusion, 5 or 10 shots over the chronograph and for group will lead to more udeful information. Other questions might be how many rounds has this rifle seen? The 4/5 loads that seem the same may show different averages when 10 shots of each load are fired, with obvious overlaps as the charges are quite close. To use the 'ladder' method, I find that 100 yards is not far enough to make a good selection, finding that 200 yards or more gives a much better image of the vertical stringing/clustering for that 'optimum' powder/primer/bullet combination. I will not continue with a load that gives 'hard bolt lift' for any purpse, hunting or long strings of fire for ' fun' or match. If any round of a 10 round string gives any indication of pressure, I back down. I don't consider a load 'developed' until I am happy with both accuracy and reliability (hard bolt lift?) for at least 20 rounds. When you just got to have more speed/power, a 300 Mag gets there with ease.

[Larry Gibson]

I always value your input Larry. So please don’t take this the wrong way. I’ve loaded for a few cartridges now, not near as much as you I know, but I have never run into a cartridge where I could have a range of 2 full grains and not move much in velocity much.

I know that ES could be crazy high, but this just seemed way weird. Maybe it was just a fluke. I plan to do more testing, and knowing that anything past the low end looked like it was going to group well enough makes me feel good about starting there.

I just never had this happen before. I’ve shot many incremental loads like this, singularly, and have always seen some rise as I go up. Maybe not always a big, not always just small, but never hanging out in one area for a 5% increase in charge weight.

On average over the years (since '74 when I got my 1st chronograph) having developed and tested numerous loads in the .308W both by chronographing and, since 2007, measuring psi also. Just as an example I've found, with medium burning powders 1 gr increase generally means an average of 65 - 75 fps increase in velocity until top end loads are reached. That means the average difference of a 2 gr increase can be 130 - 150 fps. Your data shows a spread of 276 fps with the 4 gr increase. That matches closely to what my findings are.

If your loads have an ES of 50 fps (with a 10 shot test that's a good load) then that means an additional 25 fps at each end for the low to high velocities. Shots 10 – 13 are the same load and the average is about 2728 fps with an ES of 42 fps. If you’d have fired 10 shots of that load the ES would be 50+ fps. Again your data supports what I’m saying.

Now look at shots 5 through 9 where the velocity appears to have flattened out with 42 to 44.5 gr. If #5 was at the top end of the ES fps range and #6 through #10 were at the bottom end of the range (add 50 fps to them) then you have a 112 fps spread for a 2 gr increase…..

Still the velocity of just one shot isn’t telling us much of anything. As to the shot placement on the target since we don’t know the cone of fire (group size) we’ve no idea how far the one shot is from the center of the group or the direction from the center of the group.

[newton]

Your test seems much like Dan Newberry's Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) method. If you are not already familiar, perhaps reading his explanation will be useful.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

Thanks. I have heard of it. It does seem like what I am doing kinda has some things in common, but I honestly was not doing anything other than seeing how velocity changed with different powder charges and how pressure looked afterward.

I know a lot of guys might look at that as a waste of time and resources, but I've found that with a given round it gives me a better window to look closer at. I can say pretty sure that it would be pointless for me to mess around with charges between 41 and 42.5 grains. And, because the top end just did not feel right, I will probably stay away from 44.5-45+ grains. That is unless I had my load pressure tested and was convinced that it is safe.

I suppose it is possible that this one time all the stars aligned and the velocity averages from one spread to another just hit all around the same place. In other words, if I had loaded up 5 of each instead of one, then it is probably likely that at least one of the 5 of each group would have given me the same number I got, but then the rest of them would have averaged it up or down more to show they typical velocity rise with powder charge increase.

More testing is in order for sure.

[newton]

On average over the years (since '74 when I got my 1st chronograph) having developed and tested numerous loads in the .308W both by chronographing and, since 2007, measuring psi also. Just as an example I've found, with medium burning powders 1 gr increase generally means an average of 65 - 75 fps increase in velocity until top end loads are reached. That means the average difference of a 2 gr increase can be 130 - 150 fps. Your data shows a spread of 276 fps with the 4 gr increase. That matches closely to what my findings are.

If your loads have an ES of 50 fps (with a 10 shot test that's a good load) then that means an additional 25 fps at each end for the low to high velocities. Shots 10 – 13 are the same load and the average is about 2728 fps with an ES of 42 fps. If you’d have fired 10 shots of that load the ES would be 50+ fps. Again your data supports what I’m saying.

Now look at shots 5 through 9 where the velocity appears to have flattened out with 42 to 44.5 gr. If #5 was at the top end of the ES fps range and #6 through #10 were at the bottom end of the range (add 50 fps to them) then you have a 112 fps spread for a 2 gr increase…..

Still the velocity of just one shot isn’t telling us much of anything. As to the shot placement on the target since we don’t know the cone of fire (group size) we’ve no idea how far the one shot is from the center of the group or the direction from the center of the group.

I'll definitely take your word for it. I know that I have read and learned a lot from you, and I have no doubt you have probably loaded more for the 308 than I have for all my guns.

I just wanted to check and see if this is normal, and it sounds like it is.

Thanks

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, it is normal. Back in the day 42 gr IMR 4064 under a 168 MK was used by many for HP competition. With the 165s 42.5 - 44.5 gr is where very good accuracy and velocity will be found........you're on the right track........

[30CalTy]

I had to fudge your case vol some (in the bigger direction) to get stuff to line up with your 45gr velocities. I suspect your fired cases may be quite a bit bigger than the brand new ones--or it may be that your powder is a little slower than nominal.

Take this with a grain of salt. If your case vol was correct, then the max would be at 44grs.

Cartridge : .308 Win. (CIP)
Bullet : .308, 165, Nosler BalTip 30165
Useable Case Capaci: 48.743 grain H2O = 3.165 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.825 inch = 71.76 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : IMR 4064

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 85 36.00 2201 1774 31992 6537 90.7 1.420
-18.0 87 36.90 2253 1860 34075 6732 91.8 1.383
-16.0 89 37.80 2305 1947 36287 6922 92.8 1.348
-14.0 91 38.70 2357 2036 38643 7105 93.8 1.310
-12.0 93 39.60 2409 2126 41152 7282 94.7 1.272
-10.0 95 40.50 2461 2219 43824 7450 95.5 1.236
-08.0 98 41.40 2513 2314 46671 7611 96.3 1.201
-06.0 100 42.30 2565 2410 49707 7763 97.0 1.167
-04.0 102 43.20 2616 2508 52946 7905 97.6 1.135 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 104 44.10 2668 2607 56403 8037 98.2 1.104 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 106 45.00 2719 2708 60097 8159 98.6 1.073 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 108 45.90 2770 2811 64048 8270 99.1 1.044 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 110 46.80 2821 2915 68278 8369 99.4 1.016 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 112 47.70 2872 3021 72813 8456 99.7 0.989 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 115 48.60 2922 3128 77679 8531 99.8 0.963 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 117 49.50 2972 3237 82910 8592 100.0 0.937 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 106 45.00 2828 2931 70894 7939 100.0 1.004 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 106 45.00 2569 2418 49611 8005 93.5 1.165

[newton]

I had to fudge your case vol some (in the bigger direction) to get stuff to line up with your 45gr velocities. I suspect your fired cases may be quite a bit bigger than the brand new ones--or it may be that your powder is a little slower than nominal.

Take this with a grain of salt. If your case vol was correct, then the max would be at 44grs.

Thanks 30cal

I just saw your reply on the firing line forum. I posted over there also because of that one guy having an idea about bolt lug contact. IÂ’ve never heard that point of view anywhere else.

I really appreciate the Quickloads data. It falls in line with what I was thinking. IÂ’ll measure a fired case and find out volume. The next bit of cash I get is going toward that software.

On the other forum you mentioned that 43.5 might be a good node. I shot a five shot group yesterday that showed the same thing. First two shots at 150yards were touching. Got excited and pulled the third, loaded two more and had a flier with one and the other was sitting less than an inch from the first two. Chrony said average velocity was 2641fps.

I then tried 44.5, but a three shot group was way open and I felt good about each shot. Average velocity was 2694fps

Then I tried 42.5 grains, all 5 shots in 1.5” at 150yards. Average velocity was 2607fps

So my plan for next time is to work from 42.5 to 43.5.

[newton]

So now my mind is starting to wonder. My main goal right now is to develop a good hunting load. I’m wondering if switching to Varget will help me up the velocity if I find that my accuracy nodes with 4064 are sitting around the 2600fps mark?

Everyone speaks so much about Varget seems like.

[30CalTy]

This run shows loads with the same barrel times. Sorry for the crappy formatting. They are listed fastest to slowest by MV for a 1.129 ms barrel time. Varget is certainly going to work but it might not be better for velocity.

Cartridge : .308 Win. (CIP)
Bullet : .308, 165, Nosler BalTip 30165
Useable Case Capaci: 48.554 grain H2O = 3.153 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.825 inch = 71.76 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Barrel Time: 1.129 milliseconds
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

13 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ReloadSwiss RS 60 *T 104.2 48.9 3.17 2714 98.7 50068 9266 1.129
Somchem S365 112.2 49.9 3.24 2711 99.1 50522 8885 1.129
Accurate 4064 103.9 45.5 2.95 2710 100.0 56528 8026 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 *T 103.6 48.6 3.15 2706 98.0 50363 9112 1.129
Elcho 17 103.6 48.6 3.15 2706 98.0 50363 9112 1.129
ReloadSwiss RS 62 108.9 51.1 3.31 2702 95.9 51217 9034 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 98.2 43.0 2.79 2702 100.0 57152 7692 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23 *C *T 121.1 53.0 3.44 2694 97.0 50572 9157 1.129
ReloadSwiss RS 52 99.7 46.1 2.99 2692 99.3 51883 8503 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 *C 106.3 48.6 3.15 2691 96.3 52182 8878 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 102.5 46.4 3.01 2690 99.0 54162 8430 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 102.5 46.4 3.01 2690 99.0 54162 8430 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 98.6 44.1 2.86 2683 98.2 53336 8510 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 104.8 46.4 3.01 2683 98.8 54211 8340 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 115.3 49.4 3.20 2681 96.7 52170 8650 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP *C 109.2 48.3 3.13 2681 96.3 51543 8762 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 109.2 48.3 3.13 2681 96.3 51546 8759 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T 108.4 47.3 3.06 2679 96.3 50638 8877 1.129
Hodgdon BL-C2 94.2 46.0 2.98 2678 99.0 53318 8394 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 95.2 44.9 2.91 2677 99.9 54619 7977 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 97.4 44.9 2.91 2677 99.9 54619 7977 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C 100.0 44.8 2.90 2674 98.2 53458 8412 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 98.5 48.1 3.11 2673 96.5 51557 8678 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 101.7 47.0 3.05 2673 97.7 51760 8544 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 99.2 41.5 2.69 2672 100.0 52862 7714 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511 105.6 50.3 3.26 2672 93.9 51372 8885 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 99.4 44.5 2.88 2671 97.7 53478 8422 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 99.4 44.5 2.88 2671 97.7 53478 8422 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 99.4 44.5 2.88 2671 97.7 53478 8422 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 109.1 50.4 3.27 2670 93.9 51382 8871 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 103.3 48.9 3.17 2670 93.0 51607 8806 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 103.3 48.9 3.17 2670 93.0 51607 8806 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 104.3 45.6 2.96 2669 98.6 54103 8284 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 518 109.9 50.8 3.29 2668 93.3 51377 8888 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 98.5 47.0 3.04 2667 97.7 51826 8453 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 91.2 43.9 2.85 2665 99.5 52507 8114 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 95.8 42.9 2.78 2663 98.7 53779 8226 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 101.1 46.2 3.00 2661 96.3 53899 8419 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 *C 110.6 52.7 3.42 2661 91.4 51052 9223 1.129
ADI AR 2206H 96.1 43.0 2.79 2657 98.2 53840 8223 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 101.1 44.0 2.85 2655 99.3 54650 7996 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S321 91.8 44.2 2.86 2654 99.3 54168 8062 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R901 96.8 41.1 2.67 2653 100.0 56731 7615 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385 115.3 52.2 3.38 2653 92.1 52407 8617 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C 98.1 43.0 2.78 2652 99.3 55362 7951 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 91.5 43.9 2.85 2652 99.7 55805 7754 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 91.2 43.9 2.85 2652 99.7 55805 7754 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 109.1 48.3 3.13 2651 93.9 54137 8440 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 111.9 48.4 3.14 2651 98.1 51444 8245 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 94.0 44.9 2.91 2651 98.0 53097 8230 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 *C 97.0 42.7 2.77 2646 100.0 54214 7712 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R902 100.1 43.2 2.80 2646 99.3 55482 7855 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 507 *C 93.1 43.5 2.82 2644 99.1 53519 8002 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 96.5 44.6 2.89 2644 98.0 53291 8143 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 *C 99.1 44.8 2.91 2644 100.0 53877 7847 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 *C 113.4 50.8 3.29 2643 90.0 51655 8744 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho TR140 - preliminary data 100.3 46.3 3.00 2640 96.4 53625 8179 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065 107.6 47.1 3.05 2640 95.4 54489 8233 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 7 95.5 45.9 2.97 2640 96.3 54530 8115 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 94.5 40.9 2.65 2639 100.0 53224 7111 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 TZ *CT approximation 94.0 40.9 2.65 2639 100.0 53220 7111 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT *C ~approximation 109.3 49.7 3.22 2639 92.7 52406 8458 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 516 96.7 46.1 2.99 2639 96.1 53196 8249 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 114.2 51.1 3.31 2637 89.9 51761 8673 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 92.2 41.5 2.69 2636 99.2 53679 7894 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135 *C 106.3 43.1 2.79 2635 100.0 54465 7243 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 *C 109.4 46.2 2.99 2633 99.4 53685 7830 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S341 94.9 45.7 2.96 2631 97.9 53288 7948 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 100.3 44.2 2.86 2630 97.7 51892 8055 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 90.4 43.8 2.84 2630 98.9 55037 7737 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 50 100.4 46.8 3.03 2628 94.4 53911 8175 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 94.2 42.2 2.73 2628 99.1 53748 7804 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 40 90.3 41.2 2.67 2626 99.8 53918 7650 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 91.9 39.9 2.59 2625 100.0 53249 7428 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 102.3 43.2 2.80 2623 97.7 53553 7907 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 *C 107.5 49.7 3.22 2623 89.7 51921 8473 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 111.0 49.7 3.22 2623 89.7 51921 8473 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 111.0 49.7 3.22 2623 89.7 51921 8473 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 112.0 49.9 3.23 2623 89.3 51637 8581 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 93.8 45.3 2.93 2622 95.6 53925 8094 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 100.8 43.8 2.84 2620 97.3 53053 8004 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET *T 101.2 43.8 2.84 2620 97.3 53053 8004 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 *C 99.0 43.4 2.81 2620 100.0 54010 7407 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 105.8 46.5 3.01 2619 92.8 54438 8144 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 105.8 46.5 3.01 2619 92.8 54438 8144 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 102.4 46.5 3.01 2618 92.8 54449 8138 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 91.6 43.8 2.84 2616 98.1 54310 7812 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 108.6 48.4 3.13 2615 92.3 52614 8186 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 115.2 52.1 3.38 2615 86.0 51744 8744 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 *T 110.7 48.5 3.14 2615 92.1 52591 8190 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 90.5 38.2 2.48 2615 100.0 55551 6995 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 93.7 40.1 2.60 2614 100.0 56160 6964 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 *C 120.1 53.2 3.45 2606 90.7 52288 8231 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 92.1 42.0 2.72 2606 100.0 53951 7262 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4451 Enduron *C*T 103.4 45.7 2.96 2604 93.2 53343 8056 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 NT *C ~approximation 103.6 46.0 2.98 2602 94.9 52745 7944 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S335 97.4 42.7 2.76 2601 100.0 55789 7115 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP2 NT *C ~approximation 95.3 42.3 2.74 2600 98.5 53848 7615 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 111.8 49.4 3.20 2598 88.5 52595 8160 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 93.3 41.1 2.66 2597 99.5 54451 7434 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 111.7 52.7 3.42 2594 89.3 52284 8233 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 NT *C ~approximation 100.9 45.6 2.95 2594 93.3 52155 7974 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 *T 118.8 51.7 3.35 2593 86.2 52314 8289 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC *T 114.2 51.7 3.35 2593 86.2 52314 8289 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S060 95.9 41.7 2.71 2592 98.2 54179 7554 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T 102.6 44.0 2.85 2590 93.6 54194 7814 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron *C*T 115.5 50.3 3.26 2588 87.6 52900 8130 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5 NT *C ~approximation 119.1 54.4 3.52 2584 83.0 52628 8406 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206 95.2 42.1 2.73 2584 98.6 54231 7457 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 *C 119.5 51.3 3.32 2583 88.2 52919 7994 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S361 111.3 53.0 3.44 2582 87.4 53658 7974 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700 102.6 47.9 3.10 2578 92.5 55206 7650 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7977 Enduron *C*T 120.0 53.1 3.44 2494 77.3 55034 7237 1.129 ! Near Maximum !

[newton]

This run shows loads with the same barrel times. Sorry for the crappy formatting. They are listed fastest to slowest by MV for a 1.129 ms barrel time. Varget is certainly going to work but it might not be better for velocity.

That is so interesting. Thanks. I really have to get that program.

Do you find that it is pretty accurate/consistent in its predictions?

[30CalTy]

Yeah, if you plug in a decent case vol and length, it's been good within 50fps.

Lee, Lyman, and RCBS cast bullets in there too (including some that are out of production).

[Yodogsandman]

I use the Hornady 165gr BTSP or the Nosler Partitian with 43.5gr IMR4064 for hunting. Both give me groups under 5/8" @ 100 yards if I do my part. I get 2560 FPS from a 16 1/2" barrel FR-8 Mauser. Works good in my sons rifle, too. As always, reduce to a starting load and work up carefully and incrementally watching for signs of high pressure in YOUR gun.

[marshall623]

42.5 gr of IMR 4064 under a 165 Sierra and if I do my part will let the air out of any white tail thats in the crosshairs in my 700 Remy . H 4895 or IMR 4895 are both known for excellent accuracy in the 308 W as well . If you got 4064 on hand I would run with it .

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[newton]

42.5 gr of IMR 4064 under a 165 Sierra and if I do my part will let the air out of any white tail thats in the crosshairs in my 700 Remy . H 4895 or IMR 4895 are both known for excellent accuracy in the 308 W as well . If you got 4064 on hand I would run with it .

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Interesting you mention H4895. I am think of just testing a few with it. I have it on hand for some other calibers, so it would be nice if it turned out to be good.

Looking at the quickloads chart 30cal posted it may be that I might could get a little more speed at the same accuracy node IMR4064 is showing.

One reason I would like to have as much speed as possible within accuracy limitations is that I will be taking this gun elk hunting this year. There are a few places that I might need to take a longer shot than I normally do deer hunting.

[Petrol & Powder]

I just found this thread and I didn't read all of the posts but I did read the data linked in the OP.

I've been loading 308 for decades and generally with bullets in the 165-168 grain range. The velocity spreads seen in the chart linked to the first post show the trend with increasing powder charges but as Larry points out, 1 shot doesn't tell you much other than the change in velocity with a power weight increase.

A long time ago I was in search of the best 308 win load and worked on that project for some time. When I consistently received one hole groups for my efforts - I stopped tinkering.
I did use IMR 4064 for a time and I used other powders as well but for 308 Winchester with 165-168 grain bullets there's only one powder you'll ever need and that's IMR 4895.
I have used nothing other than IMR4895 for well over 20 years.

IMR 4064 is a fine powder and I'm experimenting with it now in 7mm-08 but for the 308 I see no reason to deviate from IMR 4895.

I agree with marshall623, if you have 4064 on hand, use it up. But when that's gone, switch to 4895 and never look back.

[Petrol & Powder]

And just to toss in some other observations;

For a purely target load, the Sierra 168 gr HPBT #2200 is unbeatable in terms of accuracy. However that bullet is unsuitable for hunting.

For a hunting bullet the Sierra 165 grain boat tail spitzer point #2145 was the best combination of accuracy and terminal performance.
I also substituted the Hornady 165 grain flat base spitzer point for the Sierra BT (generally the Horandy was less money for a box of 100).
The flat base Hornady probably gives up some velocity at long ranges but at east coast hunting distances I seriously doubt it matters.

I never could get the Nosler bullets to shoot well but I'm going to chalk that up to my rifles and not the bullet. Some people swear by the Nosler bullets so maybe I didn't have the right velocity/twist rate combination.

[popper]

I agree with the H4895 in 308. I push cast to 2700+ in 24" 1:10 AR10 and so far get MOA @ 200. 168 Amax is a little slower.

[newton]

I just found this thread and I didn't read all of the posts but I did read the data linked in the OP.

I've been loading 308 for decades and generally with bullets in the 165-168 grain range. The velocity spreads seen in the chart linked to the first post show the trend with increasing powder charges but as Larry points out, 1 shot doesn't tell you much other than the change in velocity with a power weight increase.

A long time ago I was in search of the best 308 win load and worked on that project for some time. When I consistently received one hole groups for my efforts - I stopped tinkering.
I did use IMR 4064 for a time and I used other powders as well but for 308 Winchester with 165-168 grain bullets there's only one powder you'll ever need and that's IMR 4895.
I have used nothing other than IMR4895 for well over 20 years.

IMR 4064 is a fine powder and I'm experimenting with it now in 7mm-08 but for the 308 I see no reason to deviate from IMR 4895.

I agree with marshall623, if you have 4064 on hand, use it up. But when that's gone, switch to 4895 and never look back.

Did you ever try H4895? I know it and the IMR are not the same so I’m curious if you ever compared them.

[newton]

I agree with the H4895 in 308. I push cast to 2700+ in 24" 1:10 AR10 and so far get MOA @ 200. 168 Amax is a little slower.

Interesting. I plan on using cast boolits once I settle on a good jacketed one. That’s some good speed for cast and accuracy. Which boolit are you using?

[Petrol & Powder]

Did you ever try H4895? I know it and the IMR are not the same so I’m curious if you ever compared them.

I don't believe I ever tried H4895 but I did use IMR4064 and a Winchester ball powder (748 I believe) , just to name a few. 4064 isn't a bad powder but I settled on IMR4895 and I'm happy that I did.

BTW it was so long ago that the Winchester ball powder I was using was in a metal can with a small screw cap. I just discarded the last little bit of that powder. It must have been close to 30 years old. So it's been a while since I was using something other than IMR 4895 !