Incident at Red Butte

[LAH]

The "Incident at Red Butte" is sure interesting. Perhaps an overcharge of some kind or perhaps a cylinder whose time had come. The cylinder on my Model 19 Smith didn't let go but it did bulge enough the empty case had to be pounded out. I was 300 rounds into 500 of those loads when it happened. Perhaps there was nothing wrong with your the last round. However this doesn't explain the "different" round.

[sandog]

I checked the bore right after it happened, it was clear, and no discernible bulge.
There remain two loaded rounds at the bottom of the cylinder, can't get the cylinder pin out.

Casting is fine when done right. Ruger has it down pat.
Not so sure about other makers.
I agree the metal looks pretty " grainy".

I have two New Model Rugers, one a .45 Bisley that had the action worked by a gunsmith, the other a .44 Bisley that I put Power Custom parts in.
Both have nice actions, but I haven't shot them much the last few years.
I might have to give them more trigger time, and forget the Uberti's for now.

[ranchman]

I'm going to throw a different opinion entirely at this one... because I saved myself a near miss incident on one of my own in the past that luckily I caught before pulling the trigger.

My situation; I had a light cylinder-bolt spring installed and it was barely-barely of strength for holding the bolt up inside the bolt-notch... with an empty cylinder, it locked perfect every time, cocked fast or slow. BUT with a full cylinder, and magnified even more so with only 3 or 4 loaded and one or two fired, when a guy'd cock the action that light bolt spring would sometimes fail to lock the cylinder with the next to fire chamber lined up exactly perfect...

I was shooting some sighter rounds through mine, checking how my zero compared between Unique ammo & Power Pistol ammo (and fortunately was paying attention) so I caught one cocking of the action (BARELY) come out of lock-up before I fired it.. IF I'da fired that round, the bullet would have entered the barrel significantly off center (maybe) going through and exiting anyway, but surely causing a strain on the top strap/cylinder throat area & frame. Let alone the numerous other times I caught it falsely locked before firing.. subsequent shots after an out of battery firing like those would pretty surely cause something to let go. And no doubt would-too make a faintly "off" sound*

I changed out my light bolt spring for a stronger spring & the problem 100% vanished, 3 years later and likely an excess of 2500 rounds; no since issues.

Talk to folks like Dave Lanara, and others who specialize in rebuilding Colts and they'll tell you the same thing as I. It very likely wasn't your ammo. More times than not, and I mean like 90+ % of the time, it's light-springs, out of battery lock-ups (and firing that way) that cause a revolvers top strap and cylinders to pop.

[lar45]

The grain structure definitely of the frame looks way larger than the cylinder.
With a large grain structure, the metal is softer.
If the grains are smaller like in the cylinder then the steel is harder.
If the grains have a sharp edge on the boundary from one to another, then the steel will be brittle.
When You temper the steel, it makes the sharp edges smooth out and have a more rounded appearance. This will retain most of the hardness, but give it a much higher ductility.

It looks like the frame was not heat treated very well or at all.
I'm pretty sure that Uberti would not cover it, but it might be interesting to send them an email with some pics.

I had a problem a couple of years ago with loading CFE223 in a 308 with 165 Corelokts. The load was within Hodgdon's min and max. The load shot great on paper. I took it hunting and got a shot at a deer, There was lots more recoil and a big cloud of smoke. When I opened the M98 action, the primer fell out and the primer pocket was definitley way too big.
I pulled all of the ammo down and weighed each powder charge, they were all within .1gn of what I had written on the box. I'm not sure what happened, but I won't load CFE223 in a 308 again.

[sandog]

The forcing cone and frame at 4:00 and 8:00 below the barrel look fine, doesn't look like it fired out of battery.
Cylinder pin was stuck, so a while ago I tried to drive it out so I can remove the cylinder and the two remaining live rounds.
The end of the cylinder pin (knurled part) broke off right away, didn't think it would be that soft.

[MT Chambers]

Don't shoot it anymore, until the problem gets solved.

[Burnt Fingers]

Don't shoot it anymore, until the problem gets solved.

I doubt he'll be shooting that revolver any more.

[Ateam]

I agree with sending it back to uberti with a note. I would make it clear that you are not looking to litigate or get it replaced (unless you are), and that you just wanted them to be aware of the failure in case; A. it is a problem in their manufacturing process and, B. yours is not the only one out there.

[JBinMN]

I agree with sending it back to uberti with a note. I would make it clear that you are not looking to litigate or get it replaced (unless you are), and that you just wanted them to be aware of the failure in case; A. it is a problem in their manufacturing process and, B. yours is not the only one out there.

I think that^, is a good idea, if you would choose to do so.

Possibly helping others avoid any issues in the future.

No one wants to have something like what happened to you, happen to them.....



Thanks! for sharing what happened with everyone here, regardless of the possible causes, so we can all be more knowledgeable about such possibilities!

[Beerd]

Don't shoot it anymore, until the problem gets solved.

wise ***
..




edit: better than 10 minutes and I'm still laughing. and that's NOT wise GUY
..

[murf205]

I'm going to throw a different opinion entirely at this one... because I saved myself a near miss incident on one of my own in the past that luckily I caught before pulling the trigger.

My situation; I had a light cylinder-bolt spring installed and it was barely-barely of strength for holding the bolt up inside the bolt-notch... with an empty cylinder, it locked perfect every time, cocked fast or slow. BUT with a full cylinder, and magnified even more so with only 3 or 4 loaded and one or two fired, when a guy'd cock the action that light bolt spring would sometimes fail to lock the cylinder with the next to fire chamber lined up exactly perfect...

I was shooting some sighter rounds through mine, checking how my zero compared between Unique ammo & Power Pistol ammo (and fortunately was paying attention) so I caught one cocking of the action (BARELY) come out of lock-up before I fired it.. IF I'da fired that round, the bullet would have entered the barrel significantly off center (maybe) going through and exiting anyway, but surely causing a strain on the top strap/cylinder throat area & frame. Let alone the numerous other times I caught it falsely locked before firing.. subsequent shots after an out of battery firing like those would pretty surely cause something to let go. And no doubt would-too make a faintly "off" sound*

I changed out my light bolt spring for a stronger spring & the problem 100% vanished, 3 years later and likely an excess of 2500 rounds; no since issues.

Talk to folks like Dave Lanara, and others who specialize in rebuilding Colts and they'll tell you the same thing as I. It very likely wasn't your ammo. More times than not, and I mean like 90+ % of the time, it's light-springs, out of battery lock-ups (and firing that way) that cause a revolvers top strap and cylinders to pop.

Reminds me of a very well known and established brand of 44 mag revolver that I bought new in 2000. On the first trip th the range with a middle of the road 44 load with jacketed bullets, this little jewel spit a piece of jacket material into my nose and I looked like Mike Tyson punched me in the snout what with the mid summer sweat and all. After I pulled a rather large piece of jacket out of my nose (thankfully I had my safety glasses on) I carted the gun back to the LGS and he gave me the trade of a different brand of revolver that I have till this day. You're right ranchman, it's not always our fault! Glad nobody was hurt in this little episode.

[MT Gianni]

I would weigh the remaining pieces of spent brass. I suspect that the variance will be enough that you cannot depend on weighing the loaded rounds to show enough of a difference of the powder weights. As much as it hurts, I would break down all from that loading session. I suspect a cylinder stress problem but would verify my loads if that happened to me. Glad you're OK.

[sandog]

Thanks all for the replies. Anything is possible, I'm not ruling out a mistake in my loads, but at this point my faith in Italian metallurgy in more shaken than my faith in my reloading ability.
I "parted out" the gun this morning, the barrel looks fine.
The cylinder pin was a bit bent, was hard to get out, but once I removed the hammer, it was easy to hit the pin with a punch from the other side.

I pulled bullets from the two rounds remaining in the cylinder, and the rest of the box I had with me, and they are all right on. I have about two more boxes from the last loading session that I'll break down later.

I loaded that batch in Montana last summer. Normally I would use my RCBS "Little Dandy" measure for pistol loads.
Find the right rotor, and it dispenses with accuracy. But that item was down here at my Arizona place then, so I threw the charges light with my RCBS Duo measure, then trickled them up to 7.4 grs. on my Rangemaster 2000 electronic scale. I check the zero with check weights often, before using the scale, and after powder charging.

The comment about not shooting the Cimarron again until the problem was solved gave me a chuckle too.
I guess he didn't look at the pictures ?
I could just buy a new cylinder and shoot it as an "open top" ! LOL.

[tucumcari_kid]

Speaking of Arm Chairing, there seems to be 2 or 3 failures here. I assume the brass failed. As I understand, the cylinder is the key in a revolver and the cylinder split, that is a big deal. THEN there was enough pressure to separate the top strap, which isn't made the same as the cylinder. That seems like an overload. I don't know how revolvers behave with a squib, but the gap must provide some relief. This looks like it happened before the bullet left the cylinder.

I was next to a ruger hunter 44 mag that let loose, the top strap did not tear off and the cylinder split out the side.

I have absolutely no real expertise except some pattern matching, problem solving, and the "luck" of being around some guns that have given up the ghost in mid shooting... so I have no idea, but that is my arm chair conclusion...

[HangFireW8]

I'll throw out another idea.

Your previous shot sounded a little funny, then the top blew off. Metallurgy might be contributing, but the cause...

As you are handloading, you might have gotten a light charge, followed by a full charge plus what didn't make it into the last charge. If you loaded them into the gun in the same order as they were reloaded, and the gun is a bit weak, you might get the results observed.

Just a suggestion. Besides pulling and hand weighing all remaining loads in that batch, try reproducing your case charging routine and see what variation you get, weighing each and every charge.

[OutHuntn84]

Thank God you’re safe! Since the barrel isnt damaged and you seen your 2nd shot I would say it wasn’t a squib. From your loading process I’d be comfortable ruling out an overcharge. So that only leaves a bad steel in your gun or out of battery. I’m leaning more towards out of battery.
If your second shot was out of battery but still close enough to make it through the forcing cone, which could account for your odd sound, may have over pressured your cylinder that the 3rd just finished it off under normal pressure. Or the third round was too far out of battery that it stopped on the edge of the forcing cone and over pressured the cylinder.

[str8wal]

I checked the bore right after it happened, it was clear, and no discernible bulge.

That would seem to rule out a squib as I don't know if the kaboom shot would have had enough oomph to clear the bore of a stuck bullet. I have seen many revolver pics like that which were attributed to an overcharge, even by very experienced handloaders. Glad you survived without injury.

[Drm50]

I will vote for powder charge. I have seen Rugers, S&Ws and Hawes with blown cylinders and warped top straps.
Every on was powder charge. Although I must admit I have never seen one blow top strap clear off. I have also seen bulged barrels from sqibs. Although damage differs I have never seen blown cylinder from sqibs. The only top strap I've seen blown was a Hi-Standard 357 revolver. It was parted right above forcing cone and cylinder blown. Result of double charge. It's like a buldged barrel, the only cause is bore obstruction.

[RED BEAR]

I will throw out an idea i don't have a clue and doubt you ever will ether . Just thank god you are ok. It could be so many different things its hard to say. I agree contacting the manufacturer is a good idea i don't think you can send it to them directly i believe an export license is needed but they should put you in contact with there distributer in the us. Not sure about license but i would check before sending it overseas.

[onelight]

Here is a link to a 500 smith that blew with factory loads
https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2017...igmatic-cause/