Incident at Red Butte

[Beerd]

I have no idea, how far "out of battery" can a revolver be and still have the hammer/firing pin hit the primer?
Sounds like enough is too much.
..

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I am confused. The pistol I see in the pictures appears to be a Colt SA. In any case a similar thing happened to me many years ago.
I was shooting a Colt SA in 44spl loaded with "j" word bullets. All was going well until I fired a round that sounded a little weak. Since I saw the bullet hit the dirt in front of the target I thought everything was OK. I cocked the pistol and started to shoot again. A voice in my head said, better not. I released the hammer and removed the cylinder. The barrel was blocked. I had loaded a round that had no powder but the primer was powerful enough to drive the bullet into the barrel. The barrel grabbed the jacket but the lead core kept going and that is what I saw hit the dirt. I never forgot that experience. Several years later I sold a like new 45 caliber second generation Colt SA to a friend at work. A short time later he brought the pistol to work, It had a bulged barrel. It also had a bullet lodged in it. He either didn't hear the voice or he paid no attention to it. If you fire a round in any firearm and it doesn't sound or feel right, stop and smell the roses, it may be your last chance.

[Drm50]

I didn't see it happen or see the whole gun but a guy had a 45Colt clone that went off out of battery that it wrecked the gun. Cylinder wasn't blown but crushed or bent on front end. The rear of cylinder had firing pin strikes across the web. It looked to me gun had been fanned and lock up beat to point it skipped lock.

[725]

Oh My!! Glad you were not hurt.

[sandog]

I'll throw out another idea.

Your previous shot sounded a little funny, then the top blew off. Metallurgy might be contributing, but the cause...

As you are handloading, you might have gotten a light charge, followed by a full charge plus what didn't make it into the last charge. If you loaded them into the gun in the same order as they were reloaded, and the gun is a bit weak, you might get the results observed.

This theory sounds the most plausible, more so than a squib load or out of battery.
I saw the impact from the second round, and it sounded too loud to be a squib, and the barrel was not bulged or ringed.
I would think that if it fired out of battery, there would be some form of impact mark on the side of the forcing cone or on the frame in front of the cylinder.

The second shot sounded loud, just not as loud as normal.
I'm just trying to fathom how a partial powder charge from the second shot would have remained in the barrel and not have been blown out.

[sandog]

But in my studies,,, and reading all the EXCELLENT info provided,, I think that despite assurance,, the type of separation points to a bad charge of powder. I know the OP stated he checked the powder level, "I double, and triple check powder levels before seating bullets. No way would two of the 7.4 grains of Universal go unnoticed, as it would almost fill the case to the top."
While it may be very noticeable to see a double charge,, a lighter than normal charge, not filling the case can build pressures as well.
OR,,,, OR,,, some of the powder got stuck in the hopper an a light charge was dropped, as well as a heavier charge in the next case.
This THEORY works if the ammo was put in the bullet box in the same sequence as it was loaded, and then if it was shot in the same sequence.

This is all just polite speculation. But from what I've seen & studied over the years,, a double charge, or a light charge is often the culprit in such detonations & damaged firearms.

Most likely scenario, but I doubt some powder stuck in the hopper then added to the next round being loaded.
The RCBS Duo measure is meant for larger rifle charges, like 20 grains and above, which is why I hand weighed each charge.
I set it to throw around 7.2-7.3 grains, then used a trickler to get up to 7.4 grains on my scale.
And the whole tray was carefully inspected to have the same powder levels before seating bullets.

I have had friends that wrecked guns from using the wrong powder or did a double charge, and I wished to prevent such a thing from happening to me, but it did anyway.

I have been considering the safety margin on various revolvers, and with a Colt or Colt clone, there isn't much of a margin. They were designed in the blackpowder era when 13,000 psi was the norm.
With better steel today, they might be capable of say, 18,000, but cylinder walls and topstrap are still pretty thin.

Something like an older Vaquero or Blackhawk firing a magnum round would be more in the range of 35,000 psi.
So a much greater margin. But even they are not indestructible. A German immigrant neighbor of mine in Montana blew up his Ruger Redhawk .44, most likely caused by a double charge of faster burning powder.

[Wayne Smith]

I'd still send it back to Cimmaron - let them deal with Uberti to figure out what happened. Very glad you are OK, but it seems that most of the time we survive these things.

[lar45]

Before you send it off, I would call them first and discuss what would happen to the blown up gun after they examine it. If it was mine, I would want it back to hang on the wall, either that or a new replacement.

[smlekid]

I wonder if the 2nd shots odd sounding report was the cylinder partially letting go? next round has next to no pressure containment and bye bye top strap

[Larry Gibson]

Before you send it off, I would call them first and discuss what would happen to the blown up gun after they examine it. If it was mine, I would want it back to hang on the wall, either that or a new replacement.

Me too!

[pietro]

.

Folks, FYI sandog (the OP) parted out the gun a few days ago.

.

[Battis]

Here's "one of those questions" that I've always wondered about.
What's involved in proof testing a firearm? Can proof testing actually weaken metal or cause damage to a firearm that might not be evident? I'm asking because of what happened.

[tecdac]

More speculation.
Split case?
Don't know what pressure does when you have a split case and don't notice.
Not saying that's the issue here but it started me thinkin'.

[sandog]

Update on my "incident".
I was back in that cinder pit yesterday shooting one of my Mini-30's and the S&W 686. While walking to check the target I spotted this case, or what was left of a case. It was about 50 yards from where I set up my bench, but way to the left of where I had searched when my Cimarron let go.


Pretty certain it was the one that caused the blow up. Primer was backed halfway out and had marks from the recoil shield on it.
I was surprised it traveled so far as an empty case is pretty light. Who knows, maybe it hitched a ride on a piece of the heavier cylinder.
From the primer condition, it would seem to indicate a double charge.
I'll keep looking for the cylinder pieces and other rounds when I go out there again.

The single action I replaced it with is a Ruger Blackhawk in .357. The cylinder wall thickness and topstrap thickness is massive compared to the .45 Cimarron. I still wouldn't want to touch off a double charge of Universal in the Ruger, though a double charge would be noticeable because of the smaller case volume.
The load I'm using in the .357 is 6.5 grains, which fills the case about 2/3.
The 7.3 grains I used in the .45 loads was just under half a case.

[Hickory]

Here is a link to a 500 smith that blew with factory loads
https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2017...igmatic-cause/

From the looks of the barrel, it appears that the timing may have been off a bit. I wish there was a picture of the fired case to see the primer.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I think you have probably arrived at the cause of the blow up, but also that you will never know 100% for certain. Most blow ups that look like yours are caused by gross overloads. Accidents do happen, and one can't be too careful when loading ammo. You can take some consolation in knowing that you weren't the first, won't be the last, and that your Guardian Angel is apparently on the job. Even Elmer blew a couple up.

[Hickory]

I think the gross overload would have caused the cylinder to rupture before the barrel would split. But, I am only guessing.

[earlmck]

I'm thinking the "slightly different" sound of the second shot gives us a clue that there was some powder bridging going on leading to at least one set of low/high charges in those cases. Those big old 45 Colt cases easily have room for a double charge and then some. I played around looking at the load in QuickLoad. Suppose you got some bridging such that you got half a charge in one case and a charge-and-a-half in the next -- QL says around 30k psi for that high charge with only a 65% fill of the case. And the half-charge would give almost 500 fps, so could easily kick up dust around the target. Such a scenario might do the job.

And QL thinks a full-on double charge of 14.8 grains would only be 87% full while giving over 50k psi.

[sandog]

My barrel was fine Hickory, just the cylinder and frame (topstrap) that were damaged.
That different sounding 2nd shot still has me wondering too. it had something to do with the catastrophe.
It didn't sound weak, like a squib or even one that had the bullet exiting at 500 fps. Just different, I can't describe it well.
Not quite as loud, a bit sharper report .
At the time the 2nd shot didn't sound so unusual to make me feel like I should stop and inspect things. I wish I'd done that now.

[Walks]

Had the same thing happen to me with an EMF Armi San Marco. Beautiful Revolver, .45 Colt, Nickel - 5 1/2", polished engraved faux ivory grips.

Was shooting up some .45 Ammo reloaded on a dillon press. The Cowboy Shooter that I loaned 200rds to the previous month had reloaded it. I asked for the empty brass back. He reloaded it with 230RN. I was shooting it up in my Blackhawk. Friend came up, picked up the clone. Loaded with that ammo, reloaded on Taz's dillon. Third round went boom.

Classic blowup from over charge. Top strap and top three cylinders gone.

EMF gave me $100 credit toward a new Revolver. TAZ paid the Balance.

Close Friend or not, I was taught not to touch someone else's Firearm without asking first.

My fault for stepping 10ft away and not watching my stuff.