Incident at Red Butte

[sandog]

Yeah, I know, the title sounds like an old Jimmy Stewart or Glenn Ford western.
I'm calling my mishap yesterday "Incident at Red Butte" because that's where I was at when doing some shooting. Red Butte is a peak that rises up 1000 feet above the high desert, just outside Grand Canyon park.

I fired a 100 group with my Marlin 1894 Cowboy .45, which I was happy with considering runny eyes from allergies. Then fired a few more rounds at small rocks up on a cliff face.

I put the Marlin away then got out my Cimarron Model P sixgun, also in .45 Colt.

I picked out a rock about 40 yards off, fired a shot. The next shot sounded slightly, very slightly, different.
But nothing for me to suspect a squib load, it had a report almost as loud as a normal shot.
On my third shot, I looked down to see the top half of my sixgun gone.
Recoil seemed normal, but the top of my cylinder and top strap made a long, low zinging ricochet sound as it zoomed upward.

I was a bit stunned at what had occurred, but calmer than I should have been.
Later in the day, I was airing up a bike tire for a neighbor girl, and the tube exploded.
I think I was more startled from that than when my sixgun exploded.

I was just glad I was not hurt, not a scratch. Fortunately, when sixguns separate the pieces tend to go straight up. I looked around for 2 hours in an ever widening circle, looking for the top half of the cylinder and the top strap. About a 100 yard circle from where I was shooting, and never found a thing.
From the way the pieces whined away with that ricochet sound, they must have been traveling fast, and are now in a low-earth orbit.

I've shot for 50 years, and reloaded for almost as long. I've shot machine guns, rocket and grenade launchers in the Army, and shot everything from a .22 BB Cap to the .50 BMG.
First time anything like this has ever happened.

The load used was one I've shot thousands of.
A 250 grain Laser Cast RNFP at 830 fps. Starline brass, trimmed to length, with Winchester primers and 7.4 grains of Hodgdon Universal. (Not Clays). Just about the same burning rate as Unique.
I loaded with Unique for years, then switched over to WW-231.
During the powder shortage a few years back, I couldn't get WW-231, couldn't find much of anything but found a 4 lb. jug of Universal. It has been clean burning, and consistent.

I've never been one to push it with .45 loads in the Uberti's or Colt's I've owned, never loaded above 8 grains of Unique. I'm happy with 825 to 850 fps. loads.
Also aware of the mysterious blowups that have occurred when guys try to load the big .45 case too light.

I double, and triple check powder levels before seating bullets. No way would two of the 7.4 grains of Universal go unnoticed, as it would almost fill the case to the top.
I also don't think that second shot, although it sounded a bit different, was a squib ( no powder in case) as it would have been much quieter.

I had a squib load once while shooting my brother's S&W 66. It sounded weak and quiet. I stopped shooting, saw the bullet stuck in the bore, took it home and removed the stuck bullet.
I suspect that second round fired yesterday as it sounded a bit different, but have no idea what happened.

And yes, I'm going to weigh the remaining rounds I have on hand, and if they vary more than a grain or so, I'll pull the bullets and inspect.

Out of the dozen or so Uberti/Cimarron sixguns I've owned, all were good, but this one was the best. It was my pride and joy, smooth accurate, and deep blue and good case colors. Now it is just a paperweight.
I'll strip all the parts off of it I can, and start shopping for another to replace it.
Things could have ended up much worse, still amazed that I am O.K.

[Markopolo]

Holy **** Batman... praise God you still have both hands.. there is nothing hard in stone that says a gun is gunna blow Up... path of least resistance, but still no guarantee.. glad your ok sir...

Must have been something with that previous round? Sounded slightly different? Did you hit where you aimed with that round? Or maybe it sounded different due to something just happening in the gun? A weak point? Seems unlikely though, but without that other piece, it is likely that it will remain a mystery.

Actually upon further study, I don’t think you had a squib at all... if there was a squib, I think it would have taken and done more barrel damage... looks more like what would happen during a chain fire.. It looks to me like the gun fired out of battery kinda.. like the cylinder was not completely lined up somehow. I think the first funny sounding shot was the gun cylinder was slightly not lined up, causing the second to be completely misaligned. I am suspecting that there was something internal going on with the way the gun was moving the cylinder... but what the heck do I know.????

After a third look, I am going with somehow the bullet, when fired, did not clear the top of the barrel somehow when it tried to leave the cylinder . Surely not a squib. Alignment. Reflecting something was going on with your baby...


Marko

Marko

[Froogal]

Possibly a weak primer?

[NSB]

Recheck and withdrawn.

[Froogal]

My everyday .45 Colt load is a 200 grain bullet over 8.5 grains of Unique. Rossi rifle, Stoeger Uberti, and a Cimmaron.

[NSB]

Looking at my Hodgdon loading book, for a 250g cast bullet the min. charge is 6.5g and max. charge is 7.8g of Universal. If it didn't sound like a squib, and it blew straight up, are you sure you were using the right powder? Please don't take that the wrong way, but everyone makes a mistake sometime over the life of reloading. I personally only have one powder on the bench out when I'm loading. I know a couple of guys who've put the wrong stuff in their ammo and had unfavorable results. It can happen. Glad you didn't get hurt.

[Hickok]

Thankfully you were hurt.

Wow, that was the only thing I can say!!!

[Texas by God]

Looking at my Hodgdon loading book, for a 250g cast bullet the min. charge is 6.5g and max. charge is 7.8g of Universal. I can see a problem here......

He loaded 7.4 hrs of Universal. No problem there. Unless it got mixed up with Titegroup
To the OP- thank HIM that you weren't hurt in either incident. Exploding tires are serious, too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[sandog]

Universal is the only powder I have at present for loading the .45, so no chance of a powder mix up.
I do remember seeing the bullet from the suspect second round hitting the dirt next to my target rock, as I said, I had no reason to suspect a squib and bullet stuck in barrel.
Hogdgon manual is pretty conservative. I know guys that shoot nothing but 9.0 grains of Unique out of their Uberti's.
I've chronographed the load many times and it gives 830 FPs. with maybe 20 fps, variation.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It appears that at least one live round is remaining in the cylinder. Perhaps you should remove it, pull the bullet, and inspect the powder charge.
Glad you weren't hurt.

[mattw]

Wow, glad you are ok! Not much metal between those chambers... I do not shoot anything in 45LC and did not give thought to them being that thin.

[Ateam]

If there is no ring in the barrel and the forcing cone is still to spec, then I doubt a squib. One thing that strikes me in the photos of the "incident" is the granularity of the frame. I assume these are cast form its appearance, but heavy crystallization in ferrous material generally gives very brittle properties. DISCLAIMER; I don't know anything about uberti firearms or their production, and am arm-chairing this one....

[Elkins45]

If there is no ring in the barrel and the forcing cone is still to spec, then I doubt a squib. One thing that strikes me in the photos of the "incident" is the granularity of the frame. I assume these are cast form its appearance, but heavy crystallization in ferrous material generally gives very brittle properties. DISCLAIMER; I don't know anything about uberti firearms or their production, and am arm-chairing this one....

I noticed the same thing. That is some very granular steel.

[Larry Gibson]

"The next shot sounded slightly, very slightly, different.
But nothing for me to suspect a squib load, it had a report almost as loud as a normal shot."

If the OP's loads were correct it sounds to me like the 2nd shot was a "squib load" and the bullet lodged just ahead of forcing cone allowing the gas to vent out the barrel/cylinder gap. That in and of itself can be fairly loud. The third shot lodges against the 2nd effectively seating the barrel/cylinder gap. With little no additional expansion room as the bullets weren't moving fast enough the pressure rose dramatically.

Or the 2nd shot was a semi squib leaving debris in the throat. The third shot was also a squib with the primer explosion itself pushing it forward into the forcing cone where the bullet stuck/stopped momentarily creating a bore obstruction which also sealed off the barrel/cylinder gap. The powder then began burning and before the bullet could move fast enough the pressure rose to catastrophic level.

It is good the OP was not injured. I thank him for the honest report.

[Elkins45]

He said he saw the second bullet strike near his target.

[contender1]

Looking closely at the pictures,, and having studied other guns that have exploded, as well as having a Ruger frame in my possession that blew up, and even having been the first guy to have a Redhawk barrel separate from a frame,, I will offer a few POLITE thoughts.

Yes, the frame granular structure looks very grainy, but look at the cylinder. Different metal, different grain structure.

Notice the fact that 3 chambers blew apart. This usually happens when the main destructive one goes, the chambers on each side also let go.
Top straps are a "weaker" area, and as such, will often leave the gun or bulge badly.

No noticeable barrel bulge, and the comments about seeing bullet impact disprove the squib theory in my opinion.

So where does that leave us?
A few thoughts from my perspective.
A bad cylinder that, over time weakened and just now gave up. Possible,, but not as likely,, as the bullet appears to have exited the barrel in normal fashion. Yet, still a possibility.

But in my studies,,, and reading all the EXCELLENT info provided,, I think that despite assurance,, the type of separation points to a bad charge of powder. I know the OP stated he checked the powder level, "I double, and triple check powder levels before seating bullets. No way would two of the 7.4 grains of Universal go unnoticed, as it would almost fill the case to the top."
While it may be very noticeable to see a double charge,, a lighter than normal charge, not filling the case can build pressures as well.
OR,,,, OR,,, some of the powder got stuck in the hopper an a light charge was dropped, as well as a heavier charge in the next case.
This THEORY works if the ammo was put in the bullet box in the same sequence as it was loaded, and then if it was shot in the same sequence.

This is all just polite speculation. But from what I've seen & studied over the years,, a double charge, or a light charge is often the culprit in such detonations & damaged firearms.

And we are all human,, and even the most vigilant of us can miss something and make a mistake. I am reminded daily of that. Back in 1984,, I made several small mistakes when handling a .22 Ruger semi. I broke a few safety rules, and quite frankly, put a bullet through my left leg. And it was summarized quite well by a good friend, when he & his son came to visit me in the hospital. he said; "He handles more guns in a month than many people will in a lifetime. A moments lapse in thought can result in a disaster."
He was so right.

To the OP;
You may never discover the reason. My barrel separation of the Redhawk took Ruger a few years of serious study, AND caused them to design the Super Redhawk before they figured out the "why?". And they have a lot better resources than we do.

And by my own example,, you may have simply made an honest mistake in checking powder levels. I made them myself & shot myself. We are human,,,,,!

And as so many have pointed out,, you weren't hurt & THAT'S the main thing. I wasn't as lucky.

[country gent]

Glad you weren't hurt or injured by this. while the pieces may have started straight u the varying thickness of the parts, pressure points, guide forces and odd shapes they probably didt stay straight line long. The whistle you heard may have been the intact chamber and case with the air blowing over it. Like blowing on a pop bottle.
One thing I suspect is that while you didn't have a full squib load as the second round sounded different but bullet struck to the side of target. I am thinking a powder bridging event where a a grain or so of powder hung up making one charge slightly light and the next an overload. You didn't state how powder was measured but bridging charges has been an issue many times before. Another cause this time of year and winter time is higher static electricity levels causing powder to hang up. With static the small build up can go until the clinging powder is mire than the static can hold and it drops out in one bunch.

With the high energy pistol powders it dosnt always take a double charge to reach these pressure levels. With the urn rates and smaller case capacities it can happen in a smaller range.

[Jniedbalski]

You would thank that the frame would be a forging. I also thaught the steel looked very graney. I have seen metal like that with a graney finish be very week. Don’t know how it’s suposed to be like that or not.

[Burnt Fingers]

Weighing the remaining ammo won't do you any good. I'm betting there's more than a 1 gr variance in the cases.

[lar45]

I don't know if you stated it or not, but is there a bullet or two stuck in the barrel now?
You might run your fingers down the barrel to feel for any swelling.
I don't know if your barrel has any taper or not, but if it's supposed to be the same from the frame to the muzzle, then you could take measurements along it to see if there is any change.

Here's a pic of a barrel that was clogged by some jacketed bullets, probably going too slow,