Interesting article - Handguns vs Bears

[Norske]

If you use the information on a box of factory ammo, it's easy to convert KE to Momentum (a much better measure of effectiveness of a bullet on big game). Simply divide the KE by the velocity and multiply the answer times 2. Hornady used to have a momentum-based power measure in their website in the ballistic tab, but changed an easy calculation to a messy one.
The 480 Ruger has 20% more bone-breaking momentum than the 460 S&W because of bullet diameter and weight advantages even with 500 fps less velocity. The Super Redhawk weighs much less than the S&W biggest handguns. Someone also sold 5-shot Ruger SBH revolvers in 480, but I'm not sure I'd want to shoot one very often.

[rodwha]

If you use the information on a box of factory ammo, it's easy to convert KE to Momentum (a much better measure of effectiveness of a bullet on big game). Simply divide the KE by the velocity and multiply the answer times 2. Hornady used to have a momentum-based power measure in their website in the ballistic tab, but changed an easy calculation to a messy one.
The 480 Ruger has 20% more bone-breaking momentum than the 460 S&W because of bullet diameter and weight advantages even with 500 fps less velocity. The Super Redhawk weighs much less than the S&W biggest handguns. Someone also sold 5-shot Ruger SBH revolvers in 480, but I'm not sure I'd want to shoot one very often.

Are you speaking of the Taylor Knockout Formula? I’ve felt it gives a good representation.

[mart]

well if i were to have a gun in grizzly country , i'd have the 500 linebaugh.
https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/500caliber

since i live in black bear country(up to 700lbs, but 300ish lbs is more likely), my ruger sbh likes to eat 280gr wfn and 2400 all day and twice on sunday.

Packable power is the hallmark of a 500 Linebaugh. I got this one a couple of years ago. John builds a real work of art.

[Norske]

No, I'm just giving an easy way to get to Momentum, the basis for the Taylor and the Ed Matunas formulas. Whether KE or M is appropriate, think of elastic and inelastic impacts. A simple example of an elastic collision is those desk toys consisting of 5 steel balls hanging from a beam. Pull one back, let go and only one is displaced from the other end. Pull two back and let go, two are displaced. There is no deformation of any of the steel balls. Another example is in pool, billiards, snooker,etc.
A collision between two cars is inelastic. Lots of deformed sheet metal, lots of heat generated. Obviously, a bullet hitting an animal isn't elastic. There is deformation of both flesh and bullet and broken bone.

[rodwha]

No, I'm just giving an easy way to get to Momentum, the basis for the Taylor and the Ed Matunas formulas. Whether KE or M is appropriate, think of elastic and inelastic impacts. A simple example of an elastic collision is those desk toys consisting of 5 steel balls hanging from a beam. Pull one back, let go and only one is displaced from the other end. Pull two back and let go, two are displaced. There is no deformation of any of the steel balls. Another example is in pool, billiards, snooker,etc.
A collision between two cars is inelastic. Lots of deformed sheet metal, lots of heat generated. Obviously, a bullet hitting an animal isn't elastic. There is deformation of both flesh and bullet and broken bone.

So you feel the Taylor Knockout Formula isn’t correct either? Quite frankly it seemed by your description that you followed at least somewhat by it where caliber and mass meant something in conjunction with the velocity. Maybe I misunderstood you then.

I, however, haven’t seen it put in a better way. But then bullet style is another figure to equate since they can act very different from one another.

I’d most certainly like to hear more on your thoughts concerning this.

[gumbo333]

So after I made my first not toooo intelligent remark without realizing a difference between bear hunting and bear protection, wouldn't a 10 mm semi auto that might hold 15 or so rounds be decent protection? Again where I live seeing a mountain lion is very very rare. No bears.

[RED BEAR]

I have a nephew who hunts with bow and gets a bear every year. But that doesn't mean i have any intention of trying it. I have no problem handling a 44 mag never shot any hand gun bigger. When it comes to things that can eat you i prefer the biggest rifle that can be used well.

[500Linebaughbuck]

Packable power is the hallmark of a 500 Linebaugh. I got this one a couple of years ago. John builds a real work of art.

nice!!!! i just wish i could afford one!!! i have a tc encore with a 24" mgm barrel in 500L.

[John Van Gelder]

At least one of the instances described in the article, did involve a hard cast bullet. The Alaskan guide that killed the the bear was using Buffalo Bore, 147 grn hard cast bullets in his 9mm S&W.

I live in bear country and see bears almost daily in the summer months, convenience of carry is high on my list of priorities. I usually have a high capacity 9mm with hard cast bullets.

[RugerFan]

So after I made my first not toooo intelligent remark without realizing a difference between bear hunting and bear protection, wouldn't a 10 mm semi auto that might hold 15 or so rounds be decent protection? Again where I live seeing a mountain lion is very very rare. No bears.

Yes, the 10mm is getting somewhat of a following here in AK of late for bush carry. I usually carry a .41 mag and wouldn’t hesitate to bring a 10mm.


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[John Van Gelder]

Truckjohn makes a good point, there is a significant difference between bear hunting and carrying a defensive handgun when in bear country. There is another side to that "coin", a bear that is upset enough to attack you probably has worked up a fair amount of adrenalin, and consequently will be harder to put down than the bear that doesn't know you are there, that you shoot out of your tree stand.

I have taken a number of bears, with hand guns and traditional archery equipment, I am not sure I can tell any difference between the ones I have taken with heavy loads in a Ruger .45 Colt and the ones taken with hard cast bullets in the .357 Magnum.

With the big heavy magnums, .460s and .500s, you are getting to a point of diminishing returns, you have a fire arm that produces nearly a ton of kinetic energy, how much good is that if it is mostly expended on the scenery behind the animal you shoot.

Some lads from Alaska did a couple of videos on shooting charging bears, that I found interesting.,.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx-saB0HQtg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ODCQwmAvd0

[rodwha]

I have to disagree with the duck shot usage. Maybe, just maybe were it spring and very lean. And I say that as a historical account tells of several soldiers shooting a small brown bear with their .36 cal (Colt 1851?) revolvers and not doing well. Later an officer with a .44 (what we know as the Colt Dragoon) shot it twice and killed it. Upon skinning it they found the .37-something caliber balls didn’t penetrate the fat layer, and it was a small bear. The face, of course being different, but still with thick bones, I’d not want to use large bird shot.

[John Van Gelder]

Several years ago there was an article in the annual Gun Digest about a fellow who had taken a number of black bears with a Lyman reproduction 1858 Remington .44.

The .36 loaded with soft lead round balls, that weigh around 80 gr. would not be my first choice for a bear gun.

[rodwha]

Several years ago there was an article in the annual Gun Digest about a fellow who had taken a number of black bears with a Lyman reproduction 1858 Remington .44.

The .36 loaded with soft lead round balls, that weigh around 80 gr. would not be my first choice for a bear gun.

The Colt 1860 Army and Remington New Model Army (and similar models) are in essence a self loading .45 Schofield when using the few energetic powders available. My NMA likes a weighed 33 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford powder under my WFN 195 grn boolits, and there’s a bit of room left over I’m contemplating filling with more lead. This load, judging by similar projectiles and powders, is running somewhere in the standard .45 ACP performance levels (350-425 ft/lbs). My Ruger Old Army likes 38 grns with that bullet and also has a little excess room. Again, from what I see, it’s likely in the +P department.

[John Van Gelder]

I have load data using 250-255 grn bullets in the Ruger old Army, giving results pretty close to the old BP .45 Colt loads. Another line that I wish Ruger had not discontinued.

[MT Gianni]

I have to disagree with the duck shot usage. Maybe, just maybe were it spring and very lean. And I say that as a historical account tells of several soldiers shooting a small brown bear with their .36 cal (Colt 1851?) revolvers and not doing well. Later an officer with a .44 (what we know as the Colt Dragoon) shot it twice and killed it. Upon skinning it they found the .37-something caliber balls didn’t penetrate the fat layer, and it was a small bear. The face, of course being different, but still with thick bones, I’d not want to use large bird shot.

When I was living near the Flathead Reservation a grizzly bear would jump pheasant hunters every few years. #5 shot at close range had a deadly effect on at least two occasions I recall.

[rodwha]

When I was living near the Flathead Reservation a grizzly bear would jump pheasant hunters every few years. #5 shot at close range had a deadly effect on at least two occasions I recall.

Not that I would, but I suppose it’s kinda hard to argue with that.

[John Van Gelder]

Birdshot from a 12 Ga., at close range can be pretty devastating. I worked a multiple homicide, out on the Aleutian Peninsula, a young man had gotten in an argument over a set net site, and his response was to take his full choke 12 Ga. with shot loads and shoot his mother, father and uncle in the head at close range. The entry wounds showed very little shot dispersion.

[rodwha]

I’ve seen photos and x-rays from bird shot and Glaser Safety Slugs, along with a penetration test using dry wall, and according to the narative it was best to use the appropriate shot for the intended purpose. It seems like some times it works and sometimes it does not.

But then I’ve read of instances where even “proper” projectiles didn’t perform as well as one would like... Usually we read how the person was on drugs, but in one that comes to mind the guy had just been drinking an absorbed 2 magazines of .45 ACP (my favorite round), and the police officer took a lot of 12 ga (bird shot?) from close (shooting from opposite sides of a parked vehicle) and was really messed up badly. I’m fairly certain he took a shot to the face as well, but I read this maybe 20-something years ago.

At point blank (or near enough) that shot column would virtually behave somewhat like a slug I suppose.

[Norske]

I have nothing against Taylor Knockout or Matunas Optimum Game Weight formulas, nor even the guy who uses grain weight of the bullet instead of slugs (mass). Taylor converted grains bullet weight to pounds (weight). They are all based on momentum; Matunas even tried to compensate for bullet design. The link that used to be easy to use in Hornady's website compensated for bullet diameter.
I do have a problem with using KE for anything big enough that breaking bone can be important. My 22-250 can approach the KE of my 45-70 with factory loads. I certainly won't be taking the 22-250 on an outfitted black bear hunt where I'm in a ground blind less than 25 yards from the bait barrel.