Inspired

[Thundarstick]

The Jews as a race of people are God's chosen. They have promises from God that no other nation has our will ever have, the promise of being a people. Look into history at how many times the Jews have been targeted for extermination (read Ruth) the inquisition, and holocaust the Jewish people will be here on the last day. People who are Jews will be judged as individuals just like the rest of us, and through Jesus Christ IS the only way a Jew will be saved!

[Dieselhorses]

Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

John 14:6

So basically you cannot skip the "middle-man". If you want to know, worship or have anything to do with God you have to go through His son. To me, that means you have to accept, believe and confide in everything Jesus did in the way of loving us.

Most simply don't want to go that route for fear that they will expose themselves as giving into some "radical" movement and that the movement will say "HA-we got you and you gave in!" WT? (not the case)

No we are not born with a built in "chrony" that tells us what's right and wrong"! If that was the case salvation would be for nothing! Yes we can surmise or follow what out parents taught us.

All I know is that the route I went and believed in as many others on this forum has, know in their hearts that we can "move mountains" if need be!

(It really is a blessing to know and believe!)

[wmitty]

When a person is born from above and is able to see who Jesus Christ actually is, there is no doubt in one's mind that the only way to the Father is thru Him.

[Rizzo]

Does Satan have any other tool greater than this? If he can just convince everyone that there are many paths to God's salvation, and it really doesn't matter what road you follow, because they all lead to God after all! O what a wonderful plan!

You still haven't addressed my question as to how you can be so sure you have it figured out, that it don't matter. Christians are told to be ready to give account as to our faith, I'm asking you, please, give account for your faith that it don't matter the road one follows.

Well, I did address your question in my reply.
Here, let me make it easy for you:

"You ask me how I am assured that I am correct in my assumption that there are other ways to God....other than being a Christian.
First off, I am not sure of anything on this matter. With respect, I do not think that you are either.
We are born into a culture (American, Indian, Jewish, African, etc.) that each have different faiths, we read what the good books say, they make sense to us and we build our beliefs on that,.....on what others say."

But I see that you ignored my questions to you in my reply to you.
So, your answers are.....................?

Here are the questions:

"Saved from a fallen state..."
This suggests to me that you acknowledge that you were in a different state before you fell.
What state would that be? One of God's angels that decided to go have some fun in the "material world"?

So, you KNOW that being a Christian IS the only way to God.
You KNOW this how? God told you? Because you read it in a book?

[Rizzo]

....
You asked about the people who died before Christ. they were saved threw their faith as we are today as to the Jews who haven't ecepted that Jesus is the missia I don't know I see a case for them to be saved. but I wouldn't bet my salvation on it

OK, so pre-Jesus people were saved through their faith as we are today.
Yet, they were not Christians but were still "saved".
My logical conclusion would be that God lovers that are not Christian could still be saved.
No?

[bmortell]

religion makes everyone get along so nicely

[rl69]

Well there was never a time before Jesus. The Old Testament is liters with references to Jesus and a coming savior who threw His sacrifice the whole world could know God.

And any belief in a god that dosent recognize the trinity, is not a belief in the one true God. For the most part it is a belief that is founded in a man made understanding ( this seams right to me ) are it is a belief sarted by men seeking power and control over a population. Sadly most Christian doctrine is founded in the same two ideas.

As men we are quick to fill in the gaps of what we cannot understand with our own ideas and understanding. Our knowlage is limited to our experiences. Unless we are able to put our faith in God we can never even begin to understand Him. And only threw prayer obedience and reading His word can we grow in our faith

[Thundarstick]

"You ask me how I am assured that I am correct in my assumption that there are other ways to God....other than being a Christian.
First off, I am not sure of anything on this matter.

[That's the correct answer, and fare enough. You have faith in no faith. ]

With respect, I do not think that you are either.

[Respect to you, but you are 100% wrong, I am 100%sure! ]

We are born into a culture (American, Indian, Jewish, African, etc.) that each have different faiths, we read what the good books say, they make sense to us and we build our beliefs on that,.....on what others say."

[I know Christians from each of the cultures you list, and many more. Christ transcends culture! The ones in those cultures who claim God through Jesus Christ don't always worship in the same manor, but they are saved by grace through faith in Christ, no matter the culture. ]

But I see that you ignored my questions to you in my reply to you.
So, your answers are.....................?

Here are the questions:

"Saved from a fallen state..."
This suggests to me that you acknowledge that you were in a different state before you fell.
What state would that be?

[I certainly do acknowledge being in a different state before I fell! You see, I was born sinless, but with a sinful nature, and into a fallen world. I fell when I committed my first sin and because nothing sinful can be with God, I was in need of reconciliation to God. Sinners like myself are only reconciled to God through Christ, so before I believed and confessed Christ I was separated from God. ]

So, you KNOW that being a Christian IS the only way to God.
You KNOW this how? God told you? Because you read it in a book?

[If you are referring to the Bible as"a" book, you would only be partially correct. Many times the Bible is referred to as a book, in reality it is a collection of books spanning roughly 1500 years, beginning around 1400BC, and ending around 90AD, with around 40 authors. I believe they are words inspired from God, so in a since, God did tell me, and he told all those Christians from all the cultures of the whole world! ]

I can list scriptures for each of these answers, but since you don't believe they are the way, I'll not. May you find the truth friend, and be blessed to recognise it when you see it.

Please accept my apology for not being the most skilled in using the forum tools.

[truckjohn]

Viewing the Bible as a moral guideline for people who don't believe in God makes a mess of most of the Bible.... That sort of view leads people to want to delete all the parts which don't make sense within that worldview - which is most of it....

Seriously - the FIRST Major failure of humans in the Bible was getting an independent moral and ethical compass. That's the "Fruit of the knowledge of good and evil"... Like Adam and Eve - we equate this knowledge with "Being more like God" and like Adam and Eve - all it does is separate and alienate us from everything good because it ascribes moral and ethical "goodness" to our emotions and limited understanding.

Which brings us to the next question.... How are you supposed to use the rest of the Bible then?

I mean seriously - what do you do with the other 75% that's got the nasty stuff in it? Genocide, incest and rape, family members murdering eachother, illegitimate children, disowning wives and children..... Do you ignore all that stuff.

How do you deal with assigning moral and ethical lessons to somebody like Samson - who was clothed with great power yet who only accomplished some shenanigans which got the Jews in real trouble with everybody else, he did everything wrong against God's rules, didn't deliver Israel from anything, and died in the process.... Yet we view him as a great hero and more so - Samson is one of the first bible characters that most folks teach their kids about... Which is pretty ironic when you read about the guy as an adult...

How about the other teachings - that your ethic

[truckjohn]

Viewing the Bible as a moral guideline for people who don't believe in God makes a mess of most of the Bible.... That sort of view leads people to want to delete all the parts which don't make sense within that worldview - which is most of it....

Seriously - the FIRST Major failure of humans in the Bible was getting an independent moral and ethical compass. That's the "Fruit of the knowledge of good and evil"... Like Adam and Eve - we equate this knowledge with "Being more like God" and like Adam and Eve - all it does is separate and alienate us from everything good because it ascribes moral and ethical "goodness" to our emotions and limited understanding.

Which brings us to the next question.... How are you supposed to use the rest of the Bible then?

I mean seriously - what do you do with the other 75% that's got the nasty stuff in it? Genocide, incest and rape, family members murdering eachother, illegitimate children, disowning wives and children..... Do you ignore all that stuff.

How do you deal with assigning moral and ethical lessons to somebody like Samson - who was clothed with great power yet who only accomplished some shenanigans which got the Jews in real trouble with everybody else, he did everything wrong against God's rules, didn't deliver Israel from anything, and died in the process.... Yet we view him as a great hero and more so - Samson is one of the first bible characters that most folks teach their kids about... Which is pretty ironic when you read about the guy as an adult...

How about the other teachings - like for example that your ethics and morals curry you no favor with God?

[Dieselhorses]

religion makes everyone get along so nicely

You are right-it's a start! I know one thing, when I went to that alter 43 years ago I didn't know what to expect, but looking back I am in no way sorry I did! When Jesus becomes "real" in one's life you don't wanna go back to where you were! (Just saying)

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God." (1 John 4:1, MEV)

[1hole]

religion makes everyone get along so nicely

I understand at least part of what you're feeling but I believe you're wrong in application.

I know of no religion - Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Shinto, Satanism, etc. - claiming religion should be aimed at getting along "nicely", as such. Especially so if you mean everyone should be placidly silent to what is perceived by adherents as blasphemy.

Too many people seem to demand that stating differing views must, ipso facto, be a personal attack and that's simply not so. As Christians we can - and most of us do - disagree and state the facts as we see them without anger. Proof is, Christians of all colors (Baptists/Methodists/Lutherians/Roman Catholics/Pentacostals, etc.) live side by side with each other and pagans all over the world without fear.

Please don't equate the actions of isolated fools wrongly claiming to be christians as they murder others and no one is more outraged than we when it happens. World wide, the single demonstrable example of a deadly and bloody religion is Islam.

Unlike Islam's bloody Koran, our Bible gives us no mandate to kill anyone for their faith. Unlike Allah, killing evil people is our God's area of responsibility and He doesn't want or need our help.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

468,

You might find this interesting. I don't know how much you keep abreast of Catholic news but Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (BXVI) recently published an essay that offered some thoughts on how the Catholic Church (the Church) came to be in the mess it is in. It's good reading I recommend it. But here's some snippets that I think apply to the discussions you've been getting involved in:

Until the Second Vatican Council, Catholic moral theology was largely founded on natural law, while Sacred Scripture was only cited for background or substantiation. In the Council's struggle for a new understanding of Revelation, the natural law option was largely abandoned, and a moral theology based entirely on the Bible was demanded.

--BXVI

If you're younger that 70 years old, you probably don't remember much of what Catholic life was like before Vatican II (VII). But here's a clue - had you been educated prior to VII you would have been steeped in something called natural law. In other words, not ALL morality is scripture-based. All morality agrees with scripture, but you can't understand morality using only scripture for its basis.

After VII the Church would discover that a moral theology based entirely on the Bible would have its flaws:

I [Pope Bendect] still remember how the Jesuit faculty in Frankfurt trained a highly gifted young Father (Bruno Schüller) with the purpose of developing a morality based entirely on Scripture. Father Schüller's beautiful dissertation shows a first step towards building a morality based on Scripture. Father Schüller was then sent to America for further studies and came back with the realization that from the Bible alone morality could not be expressed systematically.

--BXVI

When people discarded natural law and Aristotelean/Thomistic philosophy their morality sinks into a relativism. This is because the Bible doesn't provide the philosophical foundations necessary to establish a clear understanding of morality.

Consequently, there could no longer be anything that constituted an absolute good, any more than anything fundamentally evil; (there could be) only relative value judgments. There no longer was the (absolute) good, but only the relatively better, contingent on the moment and on circumstances.

--BXVI

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

religion makes everyone get along so nicely

No it doesn't. It never was intended to. If you're looking for a namby-pamby everyone-just-gets-along religion - don't come to Christianity.

[Thundarstick]

No it doesn't. It never was intended to. If you're looking for a namby-pamby everyone-just-gets-along religion - don't come to Christianity.

Spoken by THE man!

Mat 10:34-36

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “ ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

[1hole]

Spoken by THE man!

Mat 10:34-36

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “ ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Exactly. Nothing in scripture suggests we "go along to get along."

Of course most non-Christians will badly misinterpret that passage and take it to mean we are to attack non-believers but it really means the opposite; it really means the various types of pagans will attempt to "convert" Christians back to their old family ways or be persecuted and/or killed by their own families. I cite Islam's dealing with their apostates (as well as anyone else who doesn't believe exactly as they do). Muslims who follow their merciless Allah and bloody "peaceful Koran" clearly demonstrate what that scripture means and predicted.

[Thundarstick]

I was reading an article recently about the very real persecutions that are endured by Hindi women, at their families hands, for following Christ. We are cluelessin the US of A the price paid by many to follow Jesus!

[1hole]

I was reading an article recently about the very real persecutions that are endured by Hindi women, at their families hands, for following Christ. We are clueless in the US of A the price paid by many to follow Jesus!

Roger that.

I only mentioned Islam because it's the most visible and brutal but they are by no means the only ones abusing and killing Christians. Communists do it (as devote atheists), meaning their "god" is blind faith in government. Kinda like our devoted Democrats outrage at a kid wearing a Christian T-shirt at school and their total commitment to industrial levels of killing babies at tax payer expense.

Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

[dtknowles]

I stand by everything I said, we were only talking about where morals come from so I gave my random thoughts on that, not whether Jesus is gonna save you or not that wasn't the subject. I seem to be the only one with a concept of "moral of the story" fiction or not pretty much all stories are saying the same things.

I am with some others on the need to me careful not questioning you conscience but I agree that it is possible the Bibles are fiction. You say you are reading the bible? Which one?

There are more good books and morality plays help you check your beliefs of right and wrong.

I am skeptical of a book that claims to be the divine word of "God." Skeptical but not necessary denying.

Tim

[dtknowles]

RIZZO, who and what other way would you have someone follow to be saved?

Quite possibly nobody will be save. There may be no life after death. Might be everyone will see some sort of life after death. Who believes in purgatory? Maybe we will be saved of we die killing infidels.

Tim