NOE expander plugs

[megasupermagnum]

Thanks JBinMN, I'll give it a try.

I'm sure galling is a factor, but it isn't much better with dirty brass. Those dirty 44 mags I mentioned still had soot in them, and the first one I tried stuck on there like the rest. That was with a clean plug, I wiped it off, and put it in dry. A lube of some kind seems 100% necessary to use these plugs. The Lee expanders can stick too, but not like these NOE plugs, not even close. If kept clean, the Lee expanders are plenty smooth when dry.

[gloob]

A lube of some kind seems 100% necessary to use these plugs.

A lot of people have stated they use NOE plugs without lube, so I don't see why you come up with this conclusion, pertaining specifically to one company. That is getting somewhat towards libel. It's a machined hunk of steel, just like any other expander plug. You also throw in M-die as having the same issues. Ironically, M-die is very popular in rifle calibers, where the push through M die is a lot less prone to sticking and galling than the pull thru ball expanders.

If you wet tumble or ultrasonically clean your cases without any kind of coating/finish, a lube of some sort is likely to be necessary for any expander plug, no matter how shiny or polished you make it. I suspect you will agree, eventually.

Polishing the (LEE) expander plug was the first thing I tried when it started sticking to the wet tumbled 45ACP cases I had purchased. Galling occurs between clean metal to clean metal, and polishing might even make it worse. My 45 ACP size die is pretty generous, and I used only a minimal flare, and even with a bright and shiny Lee plug, the galling would inevitably occur within 20-40 cases.

There is definitely more bullet hold on a clean case though. First time I loaded in new Starline cases was in 10mm. I went to pull a bullet, and nope. I would never have thought a 200 grain cast 10mm bullet would not be able to be pulled with an inertial hammer. I got it out by drilling a hole and putting a screw in the bullet, then using my press and a pair of vice grips. This is the kind of force you are dealing with when even a tiny spot of galling happens between the plug and the case. You have to rip out that fleck of brass to withdraw the plug, then the fleck binds and scratches on subsequent cases.

[megasupermagnum]

There is no doubt any expander works better with some lube, but I have not found it to be detrimental like with the NOE plugs. I have never tried an M-die, I just assumed they were the same idea as the NOE, although in a different package. I'm not out to purposefully hurt the reputation of NOE. I have, and really like their molds, and I don't have 10-15 of their expander plugs because I think they are junk. I'm just saying it like it is, because their plugs stick in a case bad if you use them dry in a clean brass case. Sure a Lee, or RCBS or whatever expander gets sticky if the brass galls. With the NOE plugs I was nearly flipping my screwed down bench, and have ripped rims right off cases.

You are saying a clean case is the problem. A dirty case, or one that was dry tumbled works ok, and that dirt/dust is a lube, is it not? Since I do not want to stop using the ultrasonic cleaner, I will have to start using some kind of lube.

I do plan to call NOE at some point, and would like to discuss possible upgrades. One of the problems I see is on most plugs, they have a 1/2" or so of surface for the case to grab. All they need is a tiny band near the bottom to size. The expanding step at the top is inconsequential. Less surface area should equal less pull resistance. These are really nothing but a reverse version of an expander ball. An expander ball, as we have all seen have a tiny surface that expands. What is the first thing guys say when an expander ball is sticking? Polish it.

[JBinMN]

Megasupermagnum,


I forgot to say in the earlier post...

"JPW" = "Johnsons Paste Wax".

It comes in a yellow looking can with a paint lid style top, with a red stripe running diagonally across the can, along with some darker thin stripes & & black lettering.



Available in many Hardware stores, Building suppliers ( Lowes, Home Depot, Menards, etc. ), even Walmart, in the "floor finishes" section.

[dragon813gt]

Lyman M dies have the same issue w/ perfectly clean brass. I have an ultrasonic. I just bought a rotary tumbler to try STM cleaning. They’re both a lot more work then a vibratory tumbler and can cause issues. And they don’t make the rounds more accurate. I’m glad I don’t need brass to look new every time.

The good thing about the NOE expanders is you don’t have to worry about them unthreading like you do w/ the M die plugs. And they’re available in diameter that are meant for cast bulllets unlike the M dies which are made for jacketed.

[megasupermagnum]

That depends on who you ask. I've recorded significantly lower velocity spreads with ultrasonic cleaned brass. Often this isn't the case, but I can guarantee it will never hurt accuracy.

[dragon813gt]

Why would I ask anyone? They’re my guns and my loads. I don’t get caught up in chronograph numbers beyond velocity. There was no difference on target w/ tumbled brass versus ultrasonic cleaned brass. This was done w/ new brass and I kept every variable under control that I could. I happen to be someone that will tell you cleaning primer pockets leads to no difference on target as well. Did that testing early on because I loathe case prep.

[gloob]

You are saying a clean case is the problem. A dirty case, or one that was dry tumbled works ok, and that dirt/dust is a lube, is it not? Since I do not want to stop using the ultrasonic cleaner, I will have to start using some kind of lube.

Yes, this. I assure you, if you get your brass clean enough, even a standard mouth flare die will stick and gall. Many people add a liquid wax to their wet tumbler. Maybe it will work in an ultrasonic, too. Or, you can dry tumble, afterward, with corncob and a bit of polish.

I am curious what JBinMN wants you to do with a can of JPW. W/e you apply to the plug will eventually wipe away after X number of cases. So unless you want to wipe a dab of JPW or any other lube on the inside of every 3rd or 4th case, your best course of action is to use some additive that gets inside of all your cases, automatically. Failing that, some spray lube would work. Stand the cases up, so some of the spray lube gets on the inside of the cases. It doesn't have to get in every single case, just a little in most of them should work, fine.

For rifle expanders, the reason that the M die is much less prone to sticking is because the ball expander gets pulled through the case neck. Even though it is ball or egg shaped, it will stick like mad when you are trying to expand thick necked cases, because as you pull on it, it stretches the case neck. And as you stretch/elongate the case neck, it also makes the diameter of the neck shrink. It's like a chinese finger trap. This is one reason it takes so much force to get your NOE expander out, once it gets stuck. It goes in, easy, don't it? I concede that once stuck, an NOE style die would be a bigger bugger to remove than a mouth flare die. But stuck is stuck, and it is a problem that you don't have to live with, at all.

I converted some 308 cases into 7mm, and the brass is a tad thick. Even applying lube to every case, individually, it just does not work, at all. I could break my press or bench, trying. I got the ball thru on a handful, and the cases were stretched out of shape with deformed shoulders. With the M die, it works with no lube, at all, effortlessly.

[megasupermagnum]

Why would I ask anyone? They’re my guns and my loads. I don’t get caught up in chronograph numbers beyond velocity. There was no difference on target w/ tumbled brass versus ultrasonic cleaned brass. This was done w/ new brass and I kept every variable under control that I could. I happen to be someone that will tell you cleaning primer pockets leads to no difference on target as well. Did that testing early on because I loathe case prep.

I'm not telling anyone what to do, only explaining why I do it. I also loathe case prep. I know a guy who shoots 9mm luger, who every single loading trims, deburr/chamfer (in 3 separate steps), cleans primer pockets, sizes, flares, then one by one trickles every single powder charge on a scale. He says he only uniforms the primer pocket and deburr the flash hole the first time though. He loves it, and shoots better because of it. I do the absolute minimum, which is chamfer the first time, size, expand, and clean in an ultrasonic cleaner. I am trying to avoid trimming revolver brass if possible. I only do what I believe has to be done that has a measurable difference. I charge right off the powder measure. I find that a good neck tension, and good crimp are measurable more important than .1 of a grain. Your mileage may vary.

@gloob, I will try it a few ways to see what I like best. What I just tried was shake a basket of handgun brass, and 75% stand up on their own, then spray lube. I did not have any stick when that many were lubed.

[JBinMN]

I am curious what JBinMN wants you to do with a can of JPW. W/e you apply to the plug will eventually wipe away after X number of cases.

It was in reference for something for megasupermagnum to try to "slick up" his NOE plugs, instead of lubing cases every 3-4 cases run thru the expander die. Same with the "silicone spray" I mentioned right after.

JPW is a component/ingredient of the 45/45/10( Recluse) lube, which is a TL compound & once dried, should not have much, if any, effect on powder in the case. Besides, as an example, once dried is no trouble to powder in the case on the base of boolits of any kind which are TL-ed with 45/45/10, or even, as some do, using JPW straight up out of the can for a lube.

And... Yes, it may wear off in a certain or random number of cases run thru the expander die with the NOE plug. It is just a possible way to keep the plug slick until it became slick enough thru use, I was thinking. ( Note - I mentioned that I have Zero issues with my NOE plugs & so I am just offering ideas to try to help others. )

So, that is why I brought it up earlier in post#11, in the P.S. - of that post.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post4600700

P.S. - maybe , if ya have some, try putting a very light coat of JPW on your NOE plugs & let them dry before using. That or maybe some silicone spray & let dry. Might be the "cat's meow" for ya. Something to try & doesn't cost much or take too much time.

I hope that explains it for you.

[Conditor22]

I've found a perfect lube for the NOE expander plugs and so many other things.

Aqualube 5000 Concentrate http://hi-performancebulletcoatings....0-concentrate/

Quote from HiTek the industrial chemist that created it:
"The beauty of this stuff is that you need sol very little to do the work. It is slippery as the proverbial. This stuff is used in so many places as a dry film, it is ridiculous.
One area where I used it, is wooden drawer runners. It does not matter how much weight is in the drawer, it simply slides like silk and is permanent dry lube"

"Once dried, the residue is totally nonreactive.
The Aqualube concentrate does have wetting agents in small quantities, in the diluted mixture residue from the wetting agent would be almost nonmeasurable.
If the lubed projectile is crimped into a case, it should not attract water or moisture. The powdery residue on cast bearing surfaces should help with the seal between cast and case as it is a soft compressible lubricating material.
Aqualube 5000 and mold release materials are perfect dry film lubricants and can be used to dry lubricate any two closely fitting and sliding surfaces. The dry films produced stops dust and dirt being attracted to surfaces, so less cleaning is required. Once dry, the residues repel oil and water. and leaves surfaces well lubricated and sliding very smoothly."

I've used it to size HiTek and PC'd boolits and now I get a little on a q-tip and wipe inside the case mouth of a handful of cases then when expanding cases/loading I have every 5th case be a lubed case haven't got a stuck case since then.

[gareth96]

Do ya'll leave the NOE expander plug a little loose in the Lee Univ Expndr, or do you tighten it in pretty good?

[GregLaROCHE]

My NOE plugs work great. They came well polished. If yours weren’t, maybe you should talk to NOE. I don’t often lube. Sometimes there is a feeling of drag, but never getting stuck. I don’t use my big press either.

I always use clean brass the same method JB talks about. Only difference is I use dish detergent first, rinse and then shake with citric acid and rinse. If you leave the cases in citric acid too long, some of the zinc on the surface will be removed and they will start to have a copper color.

Do you anneal your brass. If not, see if that makes a difference.

[stubshaft]

I've switched from lyman "M" dies to NOE expanders and have not had any problems whatsoever.

[JBinMN]

Do y'all leave the NOE expander plug a little loose in the Lee Univ Expander, or do you tighten it in pretty good?

I try to keep mine "firm", not too tight or loose. I usually set the "stem" to hold the bigger of the two plugs that came with the Lee Univ. Exp. die firmly tight with the big plug pointed end up & flat side down, with the NOE plug below it set the right way with the flat up to mate to the other plug, for expanding cases. No moving parts means little, or no wear, IMO.

I then set the die in the press or turret plate and adjust from there. It works for me that way, anyhow.

Others may do it differently, but I would like to know "why", if they do, myself.

[kbstenberg]

I have a question for all that use the NOE neck expanders. How much spring back do you get most of the time?
Example If i use a .309 expander will i actually end up with a .307 inside neck dia.?
Yes i understand that hardness of the brass affects the outcome. And that harder brass would expand less.

[gareth96]

I try to keep mine "firm", not too tight or loose. I usually set the "stem" to hold the bigger of the two plugs that came with the Lee Univ. Exp. die firmly tight with the big plug pointed end up & flat side down, with the NOE plug below it set the right way with the flat up to mate to the other plug, for expanding cases. No moving parts means little, or no wear, IMO.

I then set the die in the press or turret plate and adjust from there. It works for me that way, anyhow.

Others may do it differently, but I would like to know "why", if they do, myself.

Thanks for the info!

[megasupermagnum]

I have a question for all that use the NOE neck expanders. How much spring back do you get most of the time?
Example If i use a .309 expander will i actually end up with a .307 inside neck dia.?
Yes i understand that hardness of the brass affects the outcome. And that harder brass would expand less.

No, you won't see .002" spring back. That comment on the NOE website is wrong in every way. The first number is the step, the second is the actual expander. I've found .002" under bullet diameter on the expander portion is about ideal, and often the step is .002" larger than bullet diameter. Spring back is on the order of .0003" or so, not enough to worry about.


I do not anneal handgun brass, I'm not sure how you could safely.

[JBinMN]

I have a question for all that use the NOE neck expanders. How much spring back do you get most of the time?
Example If i use a .309 expander will i actually end up with a .307 inside neck dia.?
Yes i understand that hardness of the brass affects the outcome. And that harder brass would expand less.

No, IME so far, but maybe so for some others, but like was mentioned above, I do not see you getting .002 springback, although there may be others who would disagree.
Expecting 0.001", would be a better number, IMO.

I am only going to go with my own experiences & not in any way disagree with anyone else, but for example, I just got done loading up about 200 45ACP cases & started out using a NOE expander(.452) using .452 boolits, 50/50 COWW/PB and used that .452 NOE plug(< 2nd number for expansion, I don't remember the 1st number "flare step" number right now) for a bit, just to see how they did. ( They were 2X fired cases)
I found I was having issues with not enough "spring back",(or, "tension", if ya want to use that term for straight wall pistol cases) & not getting enough "grip" on the boolit, while at the same time they were easily pushed by my thumb into the case most of the way without using a seating die.

So, I changed to a .451 plug, and did some more adjustment & the brass did some spring back ( I checked overnight, as well as when I was right there to check.), as well as later, when I was done taper crimping the case just a mite, I don't over crimp, and the boolits did not "set back" into the cases more than the 1.17 I set the die for. ( I was using 452-230-SWC for a boolit & 1.17 is the suggested OAL)

Using a micrometer, I checked the cases diameter with the boolits in, after I was done loading them, & the cases measured .4715 - .472, which is about where I reckoned they should be with the over sized .452 boolits. ( Using j-word boolits I usually look for .4695 -.470, for the .450+/- + case wall thickness x 2 regarding diameter of a loaded round.)

What I found out is... With the brass I was using, the boolit was sized & checked at .452, that a NOE plug at .451 did what I needed to do to prevent setback, allow for springback/ neck tension, and measured out to what the boolit (.452) + case wall thickness X 2 - the .approx/or .472 I was looking to end up with for completed rounds.

So, once I check spring back & how the boolits did when checked against the bench for "set back" under pressure with little crimp based on what expander plug I use, then I can be sure I am not swaging the boolits down, & not allowing them to set back & cause pressure issues.

Back when I purchased the plugs, I made sure I obtained 3 NOE plugs that were .451 -.453 ( 2nd number & not the 1st flare step number & remember factory plugs are about .450, so I did not need one of those.), as to accommodate whatever boolit diameter I wanted to use & to be able to stay 0.001 over groove size.

With shipping the 3 plugs were about $20+/- for the 3 NOE plugs.
Well worth the cost, IMO.


Anyway, long post, but I hoped that my input added to what you have already rec'd & helped ya out a bit.


G'Luck!

[JBinMN]

I know I know.. "Shut up , JB..."

LOL

I just wanted to mention , even though I did so just recently in another similar topic, that I have found that if I am able to push the boolit in after expansion, regardless of what the diameter I am using for the boolit to compensate for the groove diameter. I should be able to take the boolit & firmly, not real easily, press it into the case with my thumb, almost to the OAL I seek, ( or close to crimp groove if there is one.) before I even use the seat die & crimp.

I find when I can do that, I have also found that I do not swage the boolits down, regardless of alloy BHN when I seat & crimp, but at the same time, I make sure I that the boolit will not move from where it is set for OAL by pushing it nose first firmly against the bench.

I am concerned I am not describing well enough what I do, but hopefully you folks will understand anyway.


Others may do things a bit differently, but what I have been trying to explain as far as what I have been doing has worked for me so far, without issues.


Maybe someone else will come in & do a better job of explaining what I am trying to say.


Once again, G'Luck!