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Thread: Loading a looooooong bullet in 357

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    FISH4BUGS's Avatar
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    Loading a looooooong bullet in 357

    I have an 8 cavity H&G #319 that casts a 200 gr swc. I don't even remember when or why I bought this mould - it must have been cheap cause I certainly didn't need or or even own a 357 maximum!
    It casts wonderfully and the bullets fall out with a just a minor tap of the hinge. The bullet is supposedly for the 357 maximum, but I want to experiment with it in 357 magnum.
    The bullet, when seated and crimped to the crimp groove is too long to fit the 357 revolvers. Something like 1.69" as I recall.
    My guess is that they will work just fine crimped in the crimp groove in the Rossi 92. We will see.
    However, if I seat them deeper (like crimp to the middle of the front driving band) it fits the Model 28 cylinder just fine.
    I could even seat them a bit deeper and crimp over the very front of the driving band.
    Questions:
    1) Does seating and crimping ON the front driving band damage it and cause any leading issues because it may be damaged?
    2) Does crimping OVER the front of the driving band (just enough to grip the bullet) affect anything?
    Other issues I see are the reduced case capacity (it is a VERY long bullet).
    I am going to start with WW231 and see how that works, find a good load for 231, then switch to ww296 for the max loads to work up.
    Yes, I will start low and work up in 2gr increments until I see some signs of pressure (flattened primers) or other signs of distress (difficult extraction) then back off to a safe a reliable shooter load choice.
    Your thoughts?
    Collector and shooter of guns with selector switches and threaded barrels. Collector of suppressors, SBR's, AOW's and SBS's. Lead and brass scrounger. Never too much brass, lead or components in inventory! Always looking to win beauty contests with my reloads.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Load it in a 38 sp case. Load it long enough that it will not chamber in a 38 sp. I load the Lee 358-200RF that way and it takes a max 357 mag charge fine when loaded long in a 38 sp case.
    There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialismóby vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide. Ayn Rand

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerjim View Post
    Load it in a 38 sp case. Load it long enough that it will not chamber in a 38 sp. I load the Lee 358-200RF that way and it takes a max 357 mag charge fine when loaded long in a 38 sp case.
    Now that is an idea that I had not considered.
    You are saying that by doing this it will accept a MAX 357 charge? I know I will need to work up to that slowly but it sounds counter-intuitive to me - using the 38 case, there is a reduced case capacity so it MUST be a compressed powder charge no?
    If I do this I should start with 231. That may or may not be a compressed charge.
    296 is about 3/4 full in the 357 case, so it WILL be a compressed charge.
    Still mulling this whole thing.
    Thanks for the idea.
    Collector and shooter of guns with selector switches and threaded barrels. Collector of suppressors, SBR's, AOW's and SBS's. Lead and brass scrounger. Never too much brass, lead or components in inventory! Always looking to win beauty contests with my reloads.

  4. #4
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    I have some beautifully cast g/c 180gr wfn's that were gifted to me last year that would not cycle in my Rossi R92 when loaded in .357 mag brass. I ended up getting them through the action loaded in .38 spl brass, but not totally satisfactory in my R92. The combination of COAL as well as the bullet nose design itself just didn't fit. I could have modified the cartridge guides and possibly made it work, but chose to just stick with what already worked in my .357 R92. If I want bigger bullets then the .44 mag R92 is the choice.

    jd

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    farmerjim's suggestion is a good one, but you may also want to try a .357mag. case trimmed to 1.25" as per Brian Pearce.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by FISH4BUGS View Post
    SNIP...

    I am going to start with WW231 and see how that works, find a good load for 231, then switch to ww296 for the max loads to work up.
    Yes, I will start low and work up in 2gr increments until I see some signs of pressure (flattened primers) or other signs of distress (difficult extraction) then back off to a safe a reliable shooter load choice.
    Your thoughts?
    Be sure to research W296/H110 before you 'start low'. It likes a full case.
    ...Personally, with the warnings the manufacturer has given about W296/H110, I wouldn't use it for this non-conventional purpose.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    Be sure to research W296/H110 before you 'start low'. It likes a full case.
    ...Personally, with the warnings the manufacturer has given about W296/H110, I wouldn't use it for this non-conventional purpose.
    I agree, but I have been using 296 for many years and have, in fact, violated those warnings on numerous occasions. I NEVER have loaded EXTREMELY LIGHT LOADS with 296....I acknowledge the warnings for that.
    I LIKE the idea of trimming some brass to 1.25" (or whatever will fit the 28 cylinder with that bullet seated in the crimp groove) and seeing how it works.
    HOWEVER, my original question was not answered. I have some options now but still would like to understand the crimping on the driving band issue.
    Questions:
    1) Does seating and crimping ON the front driving band damage it and cause any leading issues because it may be damaged?
    2) Does crimping OVER the front of the driving band (just enough to grip the bullet) affect anything?
    Any thoughts on that?
    Collector and shooter of guns with selector switches and threaded barrels. Collector of suppressors, SBR's, AOW's and SBS's. Lead and brass scrounger. Never too much brass, lead or components in inventory! Always looking to win beauty contests with my reloads.

  8. #8
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    1) no, unless you damage your PC. No PC and any injury is concentric, so no significant effect.

    2) no, that is routinely done with another boolit in the short cylinder S&W guns.

    It is not nose damage that ruins a boolit, it is base damage. Proved at the turn of the last century by Dr. Mann, in The Bullet's Flight. Well worth getting a copy and reading it. I got mine from the NRA Library reprint program.
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  9. #9
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    I have loaded to 357 MAG levels, not 357 MAX. The ones I tried was with herco. From the alliant 2000 manual 6.1 grains 1105 fps 33900 psi.
    Shot in a Tarus 66.
    There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialismóby vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide. Ayn Rand

  10. #10
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    I can tell you my thoughts.

    I can't see how a damaged driving band would cause lead fouling. Nose slump due to a high pressure launch could be exacerbated by a damaged drive band, but that should only effect accuracy, I don't think that would make gas cutting (lead fouling) more likely?

    Another thought, Depending on how hot your loads are going to be, as you increase chamber pressure, you should adjust your alloy hardness/toughness. A bonus with that, is you will likely reduce driving band distortion during Crimping.

    If you crimp over the top of the driving band, I'd watch for boolit setback...I'm not sure that's possible, but I'd still watch for it, especially as you get near Max loads.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master RED BEAR's Avatar
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    I load a 200 gr in 38 spec it shoots great.

  12. #12
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    I used to load the Lyman #358429 in trimmed .357Mag cases for my S&W 27. Trimmed just enough for the bullet to NOT protrude from the Cylinder.
    I marked those 200 F-C Brass cases with an big X using a triangular file. Loaded them HOT with 2400 or 4227.
    Don't do it any more. Don't need too. But the Saeco 200gr TC is/was a great bullet in the T/C Contender in a 10" bbl. But I think It's too much for a S&W N-Frame in a shortened case.

    But still experimenting with loads is what we all do.

    I trimmed .45Colt cases just short enough to crimp normally with the RCBS 45-270-SWC in a SAA clone,
    8.5grs worked just fine. Although recoil was a little bit stout.
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  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Many thanks to all for the ideas.
    I will take a look at two things:
    1) shooting them from 38 special cases and crimp on the crimp groove. They will be too long to fit in 38 cylinders so no problems there. I'll see how the 231 works for that.
    2) I am going to trim some 357 cases as needed - a bit shorter than normal and crimp on the crimp groove.....just enough to fit the Model 28 cylinder. Again, 231 is the starter but will eventually do 296 to see what I can get from them.
    Thanks to all for the thoughts and ideas. That is half the fun here - experimenting.....
    Collector and shooter of guns with selector switches and threaded barrels. Collector of suppressors, SBR's, AOW's and SBS's. Lead and brass scrounger. Never too much brass, lead or components in inventory! Always looking to win beauty contests with my reloads.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy JMax's Avatar
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    I used a 230 gr WC in 38 SPL brass the shooting pins at Second Chance using 7 gr of Blue Dot, it was just below the chamber mouth.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #15
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    https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/vi...or-all-seasons
    This is Glen's excellent article on shooting the 215 gr [listed] Lyman 358627 in 38 special, 357, 357 max and on up. If you don't like those loads check out data for the Ly 358430 in the 195 version. This isn't plowing new ground.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  16. #16
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    One of the most accurate .357 loads I ever loaded was the 358429 in a .357 Mag case slightly crimped over the front driving band. This was in my Marlin M1894 carbine. Didn't hurt the accuracy or lead at all./beagle
    diplomacy is being able to say, "nice doggie" until you find a big rock.....

  17. #17
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    You can taper crimp a 38/357 round also and it would not damage the bullet in any way. You can use your existing die turned in enough to remove the belle, but not turn the brass inward, or use a dedicated 38/357 taper crimp die. RCBS makes them. I would expect other die makers to also have them.

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/47...imp-seater-die

    I wouldnít use W231 with that heavy of a bullet. I would use a slower powder.
    Last edited by garandsrus; 03-11-2019 at 09:27 PM.

  18. #18
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    200 grains is still pretty common for 357 magnum, so there should be enough data out there. H110 is a very good choice. I would not trim brass to get into the crimp groove. If you crimp on the front band, it will most likely distort it somewhat, but will not cause leading. With a bullet with that much bearing surface, I have to think crimp is a lot less important. The Lee collet crimp die works very well for this job. Using a standard roll crimp does work too, just don't force it more than needed. This is just what I see, but a taper crimp isn't a crimp at all. It's just closing the expanded mouth. It may work on a revolver, but I have to think you can simulate the same thing with a roll crimp die. I've tried crimping over the front band before on SWC's. It never looked or felt right to me.

  19. #19
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    +1 on loading in 38 special cases
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  20. #20
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    If you're going to start getting into unconventional loadouts,
    I'd get/learn/use QuickLoad at your earliest opportunity.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check