Lee collet neck sizing dies... for straight wall?

[megasupermagnum]

After modifying some Lee collet crimp dies, and having a lot of fun, the thought occurred to me. Why hasn't anyone tried to adapt a collet neck sizing die to a handgun? Obviously a carbide sizer is not lacking, so commercially it makes no sense. For us bullet casters though, the thought came to me today as I was running a bunch of brass through a NOE expander plug. The best part of the Lee collet neck sizing dies, is that you can change the mandrel to get different neck tension. A crafty machinist could even cut a step into the mandrel, and collet. Work the brass less, no more separate expanding, no lube if you were using steel dies.


The one and only problem I see, is how far down the case do you need to size to maintain function in various handguns? Sizing just enough for the bullet is a no brainer for one handgun. One solution I'm already using is a Lee carbide FCD, without the crimp. The sizing ring takes the case down just enough to fit in any gun, but usually doesn't size enough to hold a bullet tight. I may have to buy a die for a long necked cartridge, and give it a shot.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mega: typically the Lee Taper Crimp die with the carbide insert will size the case back down to remove any bulges that occur during firing, like on .40 S&W cases. This reduces the full length of the cases down to where they are once again Cylindrical.

They still have to be F/L sized to squeeze the neck portion down to where it will hold a boolit. Mine come out .422-.423 on the OD at the case mouth after run thru the crimp die. The sizing die takes them down to .417-418. put the boolit in and they are back up to .421-.423.
Taper crimp to .417-.418 at the case mouth. That yields about .002-.003 crimp into the boolit on either side.

People say why not just run the case all the way thru the F/L die? Because you can't compress brass and the case head is about .420-421. so it's not going thru the die.

Randy

[longbow]

MSM I have been wondering the same thing! My 1894 .44 mag. has a fat chamber and typical far groove diameter so I load 0.434" boolits. My carbide dies size the brass down way past what I need for those fat boolits. I took to just "neck sizing" the .44 mag. brass but even that sizes the "necks" down so much the brass looks like .44-40 brass!

I haven't had many cartridges crack yet but still it is a lot of sizing down then stretching back to suit 0.434" boolits and the loaded brass looks pretty weird with a bulge below the boolit base. I'll try to back the die off a little more but... that still isn't stopping the excess working of the brass needlessly.

So, if someone comes out with collet dies for .44 mag. I'm in!

Longbow

[243winxb]

Redding makes a Duel Ring carbide sizing die . https://www.redding-reloading.com/on...g-carbide-dies

Redding has solved the problem that has plagued ordinary carbide dies since their invention. The little ring in

a standard carbide die had to do double duty. It sized the top of the case to properly hold the bullet but then

continued to size the whole body of the case as well. Unfortunately, these two areas need to be sized at

different diameters, so carbide dies of the past have always been a compromise.

Redding's solution to this problem is a unique

(patent pending) design, incorporating two carbide

rings within one sizing die. The upper ring is

positioned to size only the bullet retention portion of

the case while the other is located to properly size

the case body without overworking the brass. Sized

cases will not only look and function better but

brass life will increase.



Dual Ring Carbide Sizing Dies

Cartridge Item No.

38 Special 95183

357 Magnum 95182

40 Smith & Wesson 95272

44 Special 95187

44 Magnum 95186

45 ACP 95189

45 Colt 95191

[megasupermagnum]

I had no idea Redding had the same idea. Unfortunately it is not adjustable for different sizes. The only advantage would be a longer case life.

Longbow, if you haven't already, try sizing with a Lee carbide FCD with the crimper removed. Using bullets that big, the FCD might give you enough neck tension as is.

W.R.Buchanan, I just measured a handful of 327 federal and 44 magnum brass, and they seem very consistent case to case. Unfortunately, it looks like it would be extremely difficult to size the entire case with a collet. Looking at a fired 327 federal, the case head is .337", just past that is .342". and it tapers to .339" at the mouth. Obviously immediately past the web is where the brass would stick in a gun.

I am going to buy a neck sizing die and try and make this work. I already have to both body and neck size my 327 brass, so this would remove two extra reloading steps for me.

[243winxb]

The length of pistol cases may be to short For a collet sizer. https://leeprecision.com/custom-coll...14-thread.html

Custom made steel dies could follow the taper in the case body.

If you can find a old steel dies, i think it has the taper for some cartridges, like 45 Colt. But may still over work the brass.

The old RCBS news letter talked about neck sizing to just below the base of bullets with the carbide dies. Did not work with 45 acp in 1911. The 357 mag was a little better, but not perfect with full pressure loads.

The RCBS carbide dies work with a thickness of a nickle between die and shell holder for me.

[megasupermagnum]

After a quick look through my neck sizing dies, it seems this idea is doomed. The slits go a long ways down, I would hazard a guess a cartridge 1.5" long is the bare minimum that would stand a chance of working, just the slits are about 1.2" long. It was an idea, but wont work unless a a guy knew how to make his own collets.

[243winxb]

Its a good idea. Something to work on, a new invention. Don't forget to apply for a patent if you do.

A bushing die, with 2 bushing. One for the top of the case, the 2nd for the bottom.

Currently, there are bushing dies for bottle neck cartridges. Would be expensive.

[Intel6]

Aren't you talking about these?

https://leeprecision.com/lee-collet-style-crimp-die/

[megasupermagnum]

Aren't you talking about these?

https://leeprecision.com/lee-collet-style-crimp-die/

No, the band on those is too narrow to be a neck sizer. I gave up on the idea of a handgun collet sizer. My other idea is a Lee carbide FCD with a custom sizer bushing. It has the carbide sizer that barely sizes, and insures it fits any gun. It would not be hard to make a bushing to replace the crimper to size the neck area. This idea seems more viable, but you would still need to expand case mouths, so what would you really gain?

[gloob]

To me there is an obvious concern over setback. When you size the case, you ensure it is significantly smaller than the bullet. Then you open it up with the expander die only as far as you need to get the bullet seated.

Then there is variation between different cases. With rifles, you are getting a larger benefit by reloading, regarding cost and/or accuracy. With handguns, there are fewer people who spend the time to sort headstamps and turn cases to get a uniform brass thickness. The collet neck sizers for rifles will only be as consistent as the brass and the human on the lever. This would be dicey way to churn out high volume pistol ammo.

[megasupermagnum]

If the mandrel was for example .3545", the ID of the brass would be just over that. If the same brass was sized way down, then expanded with a .355" plug, brass ID would be just under that. Effectively you would have the same sizing, just two ways to get there. Both ways would work well with a .357" bullet, setback no problem. A collet sizer works well, the limiting factor is the collet length. I cannot make my own collets, and it turns out that I cannot modify one to work for handguns.

BTW, I went through this before, but the reason the Lee neck sizer works so well is because the neck thickness does not effect the ID, where a bushing neck sizer the neck thickness directly effects it. A bushing neck sizer doesn't work well on rifles without turning necks. I realize an uneven neck will cause it to be a little off with the Lee die, but we are not talking about competition level here.

[gloob]

Ahh, I thought a collet sizer was the kind like the Lee neck sizers that rely on the OD/feel. I stand corrected.

Any rate, the ID of the brass in the area of bullets seating can end up the same whether conventionally done or via a "neck sizer," but I was thinking the area BEHIND the bullet is going to be looser by trying to use the neck sizer. The conventional size die is going to squish the brass much smaller, then the expander will only open up that brass as deep as the bullet is going to be. I don't know how important that is for prevention of setback, mind you. Maybe it wouldn't matter. It is just something I wouldn't trust until I tested it for myself.

[Intel6]

OK, Thanks I wasn't trying to be a ++++ I just wasn't following the conversation well. Thanks for setting me straight.

No, the band on those is too narrow to be a neck sizer. I gave up on the idea of a handgun collet sizer. My other idea is a Lee carbide FCD with a custom sizer bushing. It has the carbide sizer that barely sizes, and insures it fits any gun. It would not be hard to make a bushing to replace the crimper to size the neck area. This idea seems more viable, but you would still need to expand case mouths, so what would you really gain?

[44magLeo]

I have a Lyman 310 set for 44 S/M. They only neck size. On R-P 44M brass they size to an ID of .428. Easy to adjust to however far down the case you want to size to. The expander is .429. This leaves an ID of .429.
I'm not a machinist but I think it shouldn't be to hard to build a Neck sizing die that can use bushing to size the necks to any size you need.
Possibly alter a Lee Carbide factory crimp die to accept bushings. Several companies make bushings, I think some make carbide bushings.
No need for a collet type size die.
Maybe even some of these companies that make special order dies could make bushing dies for straight walled pistol cases.
Even with getting the neck size down to the correct size for the boolits you use I would still run them through an M step type expander. This would give you the larger mouth to properly seat the boolit.
Leo