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Thread: Can one be faithful without quoting scripture?

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    This is an interesting discussion to find on THIS forum how many here would say the manuals and books don’t make sense do what you feel is right , how many have not learned from others here on things they don’t know or understand , how many share what they know to sort through bad destructive practices to help us that don’t know as much people many come here because of shared passion with like minded people and this is the best reloading church they can find.
    If God is as important as reloading to you you will seek out like minded people to learn from teach and worship with.
    Sorry for the edit I stopped before finishing so I could go to church.
    Last edited by onelight; 03-31-2019 at 03:56 PM.

  2. #62
    Boolit Buddy 468's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    Jas 1:26, 27

    Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.
    I SO needed to read this today.

  3. #63
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    1hole,
    ...I reflected on the Thou shalt not kill issue and what you said and what I said in my reply... I gave a knee-jerk reply and probably came across rather disrespectful. ... I apologize for that.

    I do agree that Thou shalt not kill undoubtedly means murder.

    Anyway, I hope you understand.
    My friend, I didn't take any offense at all. If I demanded everyone agree with me in order for me to love them I'd be living alone under a bridge some where.

  4. #64
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 468 View Post
    I SO needed to read this today.

    As do I always!

  5. #65
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 468 View Post
    7I hole, I don’t think you answered any of my questions. But you’re not obligated to. Thats a problem I have with some. Seems a bit evasive. But that’s MY problem, not yours. No disrespect intended.
    .....
    All good guys. Friendly discussion.
    I wasn't even trying to answer all your questions but we just aren't told a lot of things. Like others, I could tell you what I THINK but without scripture to back myself up - and there are no answers given for many of your questions - I'd just be another web blow hard with an opinion.

    As friendly discussion I gave an abbreviated overview of how the "Bible" as we know it came to be so you and others might understand how parts of it are difficult or impossible for us to understand. That does NOT mean the Bible is insufficent for it's indeed use.

    Thing is, the Bible really IS literally true BUT, just as in English, there are many figures of speech and metaphors that may be confusing at first but come clear if we THINK about them. But, if we believe what we THINK is true - or that what we think SHOULD be true - we wouldn't have any need for the Bible at all .... but that sure isn't true, is it? So we need to get passed the words and reach for the true message.

    Before we get too dogmatic about thinking every word in English scripture is literally true, as it's stated, without thought or exception we would have Jesus be a rock, cornerstone, a lion, a lamb, etc., none of which is true.

    If I remember my word studies correctly, there were three or four old Hebrew words that might be translated as "kill" but only one of should be taken in that verse - and that's NOT the one the early translators chose to use. So -- before anyone gets too dogmatic about individual translated words they really need to at least try to understand what the original writer meant to convey.

    Good people seek to defend the oft translated Bible when they say, "The Bible says ...." and demand a literal interpretation that doesn't make sense but God is not foolish. I mean, it's easy to take some translated words way too literal far! In the case of "kill", a state appointed executioner kills convicted people but he does not murder. Ditto murder doesn't apply to a soldier in battle, nor a cop confronting an attacking felon, nor a father defending his family from lethal threat. They kill but it's not murder. (And we all know Jesus is not literally a stone, don't we!)
    Last edited by 1hole; 03-31-2019 at 04:31 PM.

  6. #66
    Boolit Master
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    If you do a little research you will soon find...

    You shall not murder (Hebrew: לֹא תִּרְצָח lo tirṣaḥ)

    The second major objection to citing Exodus 20:13 as a prohibition on killing is that it is based on an incorrect translation of the verse. It should be translated as “Thou shalt not murder” rather than “Thou shalt not kill,” and there is quite a moral distinction between the two terms.
    I may not know Hebrew, but I know of many scholars who do, and they all agree that the proper translation of Exodus 20:13 is “Thou shalt not murder.” As Professor Berel Lang of Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut has noted:

  7. #67
    Boolit Buddy
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    Texas by God said it all
    It's what's in your heart

  8. #68
    Boolit Master

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    I've been following this thread, as I have had similar questions. I'll hand it to you, 468, that you sure sparked some questions and thoughts on this question. I'm not sure what to say about this, except that we all need to follow or find our own way to the Lord. I'm a believer, but not a great Church goer. For whatever reason. It's great to have this kind of discussion, all I can say. I will add this: Your original question is, "Can one be faithful without quoting scripture?" Since our religion is founded in the scripture, as it is the basis of who, as Christians, we are, I would say, "No." How can we go forward without the Gospel. (Good News). No challenges, just my belief.
    One of my father's favorite statements: "If I say a chicken dips snuff, look under his wing for the snuffbox" How I was raised, who I am.

  9. #69
    Boolit Master
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    I believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, as the Son of God, and I believe that he chose to die on a cross to pay for the sins that I will and do commit. He chose to be my savior, and all I was asked was to believe in him, and that he chose to save me from my sins. As a Christian, I understand that I am a sinner, as we all are, and I understand that Jesus paid my price for my sins, and my belief in that is my salvation. I don't go to church much......can't quote much scripture, but I have had some long talks with our Pastor about it. He of course encourages me to be more involved, ie. more 'religious', but he also gets where I'm at with it. My wife is deeply involved with the church, teaches bible studies, and is much better at religion than I am. I love her for it.....encourage her and support her in it any way I can, and I'm amazed at her ability to study and share the word. I guess I'm just not wired to witness.....but I know what I know about my relationship with Christ, and the church doesn't have much to do with it.
    "Do not follow where the path might lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

  10. #70
    Boolit Buddy 468's Avatar
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    Just read back through “my” thread. At this point, I feel we have so much more commonality that differences. Though we all have different ways of living our own personal faiths, it feels, for the most part, that there is a common goal. That is to emulate Jesus and his teachings.

    Some do it by reflecting and possibly stating/ sharing their favorite Bible passages. Some do by offering assistance to a stranger. Some by holding the hand of another. Some by protecting the less able. Call it being a Christian, being a good person, or just doing the right thing. Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Jewish...You’re doing God’s work. No need to over think this...and no need to try to convince anyone else that your way is THE way. If it works for you, do it.

    I’ve gained more insight from the various responses in this thread than in the hours I’ve recently spent reading. Has this not been God’s work?

    God bless all us idiots. Hahahaha!

  11. #71
    Boolit Master
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    468, you mention emulating Jesus? Ask yourself this one question. How many times did Jesus quote scripture, use scripture to teach, or quote scripture to the very ones who should have known the scriptures? Then ask yourself once more. Should I know what's in the scriptures? God's blessings be upon you and yours.

  12. #72
    Boolit Buddy 468's Avatar
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    Thundarstruck: good thought... and a question to which I will seek an answer.

    I accept the mission...lol

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by 468 View Post
    BJJ, great comments on Bible thumpers and TV characters.

    Before I answer, is this a test? ...LOL

    BTW...great question to which I do not have full answers.

    Let's focus on the rules, if that's OK. To which rules are we referring? The 10 Commandments? Jesus' 3 Commandments? Implied rules stated by John in Romans? The rules stated in Leviticus? (the latter playing into your big rule/small rule query)

    ...and thanks for engaging.
    Sorry for not getting back sooner.

    You are catching on to me with the big/small rules. I suspect that a rule such as Jews using separate dishes and so forth is a smaller rule.

    As for the big rules - I would say you could lump together the 10 Commandments, Jesus' 3 rules (I thought it was 2), and another set that used to be called natural law. I believe God wrote two books, the Bible, and the book of nature.

    Not really a test, but a way of changing the perspective in order to grapple with the original question. I honestly don't know how the conversation will turn out - I just know how I would answer these questions.

    So. . . can you get to Heaven without loving God?
    Can you love God without following His (big) rules?

  14. #74
    Boolit Master exile's Avatar
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    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 (N.A.S.B.)

    Jesus himself was the Word. Despite this and despite his deity, when Jesus was tempted by Satan in Luke chapter 4, he responded by quoting scripture. This held true for our Lord in most every situation. When confronted, challenged, questioned, etc., Jesus invariably responded by quoting scripture.

    Jesus also stated,

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17 (E.S.V.)

    Does quoting scripture make you faithful? No, Satan knows the Bible better than any of us do.

    Can you be faithful without quoting scripture? Based on Jesus example, No.

    exile
    "There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776

    "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)

  15. #75
    Boolit Master
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    It is a great discussion. Are 'faithful' and 'saved' one and the same? I guess what I'm asking is.....can one be saved without citing scripture? I believe one can....and would love to hear others perspective.
    "Do not follow where the path might lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

  16. #76
    Boolit Master
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    I have been reluctant to comment on this thread as I do not class myself as a true Christian in the true sense of the word. I believe I am a good person and believe strongly in 9 of the 10 commandments, thou shall not kill is the one I have a problem with, I believe the interpretation should be thou should not kill which may be a play on words to some. I refuse to believe that I should be thrown to the fires of hell for putting some low life in a body bag for coming through my bedroom window, or our service men and women taking life in the line of duty. My Grandad was a minister and he never pushed religion onto others but he did insist on common decency and did teach us right from wrong in the sternest of manner, he read the Bible every night for several hours and got great pleasure from it, but I believe he considered his religion a very private thing that he shared with others if needed. There is quiet a difference in the religion conviction between Australians and Americans, but I believe that when the time comes we will be judged by how we lived our lives and the impressions we left on others. I would not be surprised to find heaven has more than a few decent living souls who never held a Bible in their life. I hope I have not offended anyone with my ranting as it was not my intention to convey anything other than how personal faith can be to some. Regards Stephen

  17. #77
    Boolit Buddy 468's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    Sorry for not getting back sooner.

    You are catching on to me with the big/small rules. I suspect that a rule such as Jews using separate dishes and so forth is a smaller rule.

    As for the big rules - I would say you could lump together the 10 Commandments, Jesus' 3 rules (I thought it was 2), and another set that used to be called natural law. I believe God wrote two books, the Bible, and the book of nature.

    Not really a test, but a way of changing the perspective in order to grapple with the original question. I honestly don't know how the conversation will turn out - I just know how I would answer these questions.

    So. . . can you get to Heaven without loving God?
    Can you love God without following His (big) rules?
    My answer to both of your questions: NO

    Questions motivate thought and discussion. Discussion often leads to understanding. thanks

  18. #78
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    So. . . can you get to Heaven without loving God?
    Can you love God without following His (big) rules?
    In what sense have you used the word "love"? That is, emotional or intellectual? The Bible uses the word "love" to mean an intellectual decision to put the needs of another first. In the case of God, biblical love means we put a desire to please him above any of our own conflicting desires.

  19. #79
    Boolit Master


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    My thought is that Jesus quoted Scripture because he lived in a Jewish culture that knew and had faith in the sacred writings.

    If we are talking to the un-churched, it does us little good to quote from the Bible directly. It has no authority with that type of audience. We can convey biblical ideas to people without stating direct quotes followed by chapter and verse citations. Throwing out verse after verse makes us sound a little strange; especially if the stuff we have memorized is from the KJV.

    Of course, we have to understand the meaning behind those passages we would love to share.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by 468 View Post
    My answer to both of your questions: NO

    Questions motivate thought and discussion. Discussion often leads to understanding. thanks
    OK. We're on the same page then.

    Here's something I'll quote, but don't worry it's not from the Bible:

    If—on the contrary—the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
    --Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 1793.

    I think this sort of applies to your idea of does a person really have to practice religion and all the rituals and such. If that person is invincibly ignorant then they are not culpable for the evil of not doing these things. But can you or I claim this invincible ignorance?

    Here's another quote not from the Bible:

    Love and do what you will.
    --St. Augustine.

    How do you love? Since this is a forum dedicated to shooting I'm sure most guys here can relate to this example:
    Suppose a young husband buys his wife a new rifle for Christmas.

    There are in fact wives who would greatly appreciate this sort of gift, but not many. In some cases the husband may have been so narcissistic as to have bought a full-sized rifle fully knowing that he was going to be the only one shooting it. In many cases however, it is just not what the wife wanted. The husband made the simple mistake of thinking "I would love to get a new rifle as a gift, therefore it should make my wife happy". What would St. Augustine think of this?

    As the husband gets older and wiser, he comes to learn that to love his wife, he cannot simply assume his desires are hers also. He must get to know her. In order to love his wife he has to listen to her. He has to read her as a hunter would read "sign" (told you God wrote two books). I think that is more along the lines of how St. Augustine should be interpreted.

    How am I doing so far? No Bible quotes yet, right?

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