Can one be faithful without quoting scripture?

[Sig556r]

I'm in Tennessee. Say I want to drive to Kansas City, but have never been there. I use to would have gotten a paper road map and picked out a route to guide me there. Now days I plug it into a GPS, smart phone or similar device and let it pick my route (some times this is a gamble as well)! The only other option I have after this is to ask others along the way for direction as I travel and adjust my route at their whim, in the hope that THEY actually know what their talking about, all the while hoping I arrive.

Now how would this relate to scripture? Do I follow a map, or trust in other men's direction? How will I follow a map of I don't have one, or consult the one I do have? Perhaps the map is confusing, but it comes in handy for comparing others directions against.


I had an Uncle who delighted in giving convoluted and backward directions to anyone who was unfortunate enough to ask, he got a kick from seeing people lost! We have any adversary who does the same thing. He spreads confusion, doubt, and misdirection, because he delights in seeing us lost! He don't want any of us to travel the road to our destination, lest we find the reward at the end of our journey!

I am the driver! I am responsible for getting there! I am going to use every means to see my destination! Be wise friends and brothers!

Lovin' the driver analogy...caveat, men don't ask directions, ever! however, they will pursue the way, one or the other, with sheer determination before they succumb to her nagging I told you so...

[Shawlerbrook]

Religion is a man made way for people to be spiritual and adhere to the rules of a higher power. Just like there are many different languages for people to do one thing...communicate with each other, there are many religions to accomplish spirituality. It can be done in a group with an organization and leader or it can be done individually. Personally for me at this point in my life, my spirituality is a private and personal thing. I respect all others religions ( as long as it’s not telling them to blow me up or cut off my head) and I expect the same from others. I actually like to learn about other religions as long as it’s not forced upon me.

[pertnear]

Background: I grew up Catholic. Went to mass every Sunday, every appropriate day of obligation. Alter boy. Catholic grammar and high schools. Active in the church community through early adulthood. Baprisd my children. Sent them to Catholic grammar and high schools. All the while “ knowing” this was the right path to take.(there’s another topic to be discussed...)

At some point, my common sense started to take over my thoughts. Are those who followed all these “rules” more loved by God than those who aren’t? Those not attending church every Sunday certainly weren’t suffering. Quite frankly, some of the most difficult , unreasonable people i’ve ever dealt with were those in positions of authority in the Catholic hierarchy...supposedly the “more faithful” ones.

Yet I digress. Common sense: Can one not be faithful, spiritual without adhering to some religious institution’s rules of worship? Does God really require us to kneel before him and demonstrate our submission to his will? Are we required to “ feed an ego” in order to be considered for salvation?

I’ve done my share of kneeling and praying. There is no doubt in my mind that there is Higher Power. You don’t have to sit in a church, or be able to quote the Bible to do this. I don’t think God cares if I eat meat on Fridays during Lent. I don’t th8nk i’m ****ed to hell if I don’t go to confession, or receive the Last Rights before I die.

I try to bea truly good person. I don’t intentionally hurt anyone. I sacrifice, silently, for the benefit of others. I raised my children to be responsible, respectful, giving people. I am always willing to extend a hand to those who truly need it, without enabling. ... and I spend my quiet moments of meditation considering the good, and not so good things i’ve done, or intend to do...all the while not being within the walls or rules of any particular religious institution. Never once referring to Genesis, Revelations, or anything in between.

My point is that you don’t need to be able to recite bible passages, or rely on, or hide behind, those strings of words to know how to be a good, spiritual person. Like Spike Lee says( political views aside), “ DO THE RIGHT THING”. You don’t need ancient text to tell you what he right thing is. Just use your God given common sense!

Thanks for reading it. I hope for a friendly, mutually respectful conversation. Let’s do this without stating “ the Bible says”, or “ in the book of Matthew...”. Let’s just speak from our own personal hearts and minds. Is this possible?

468,

I hope I’m considered part of the brotherhood here at “Cast Boolits” & I enjoy monitoring this forum daily. I usually keep religious thoughts to myself, but if this is like having a discussion in your garage, I’ll comment with the understanding that I would never try to intentionally offend anyone, especially my friends. I must admit that when I review the forum, if the topic is under “Deep Theological Thought” it’s an automatic skip for me. I opened your thread because of your starter “Can one be faithful without quoting scriptures?” I was curious about the responses, because I have a pet peeve of Bible preaching along with folks who put a “fish” symbol on their store window or business card. To me instead of implying “You can rust me, I’m Christian” it says "Beware".

Your initial thread premise really caught my attention as it could have easily come out of my head, but I could never articulate it as well as you did. Not sure, but perhaps ESP is involved here – LOL! I too was raised Catholic & attended grade, middle, high & college Catholic schools. I went to mass every Sunday. I went to mass daily while in grade & middle school. When I reached adulthood & became independent, the rules & hypocrisy of the church turned me off like a light switch. But I’m confident that I am a good person & am a tiny part of the positive in this world.

Most all of us (sociopaths & psychopaths excluded) have an innate sense of good & evil. So I agree with the way you answered your own question “Just use your God given common sense!”

[Froogal]

God knows what's in your heart. Doesn't matter if you're on the pew or on the pond. Be happy and love on. Jesus loves you. Have a great Sunday!

Yes! that is how I feel also. I don't understand all of that intellectual stuff that sometimes is preached.

[468]

468,

I hope I’m considered part of the brotherhood here at “Cast Boolits” & I enjoy monitoring this forum daily. I usually keep religious thoughts to myself, but if this is like having a discussion in your garage, I’ll comment with the understanding that I would never try to intentionally offend anyone, especially my friends. I must admit that when I review the forum, if the topic is under “Deep Theological Thought” it’s an automatic skip for me. I opened your thread because of your starter “Can one be faithful without quoting scriptures?” I was curious about the responses, because I have a et peeve of Bible preaching along with folks who put a “fish” symbol on their store window or business card. To me instead of implying “You can rust me, I’m Christian” it says "Beware".

Your initial thread premise really caught my attention as it could have easily come out of my head, but I could never articulate it as well as you did. Not sure, but perhaps ESP is involved here – LOL! I too was raised Catholic & attended grade, middle, high & college Catholic schools. I went to mass every Sunday. I went to mass daily while in grade & middle school. When I reached adulthood & became independent, the rules & hypocrisy of the church turned me off like a light switch. But I’m confident that I am a good person & am a tiny part of the positive in this world.

Most all of us (sociopaths & psychopaths excluded) have an innate sense of good & evil. So I agree with the way you answered your own question “Just use your God given common sense!”

Pertnear, we certainly have a “meeting of the minds” on this...as apparently do I with several others.

Your comment re “trust me i’m a Christian...”, is of particular note for me. Along with your pet peeve.

[gon2shoot]

The sacrifice of Jesus was to cleanse us of our sins because we aren't able to take care of that ourselves. The scriptures are there to tell us how to take advantage of that sacrifice. (not complex nor difficult)
Jesus didn't die because we deserved it, but because we needed it.

[wv109323]

Going to church makes you a Christian, like sleeping in the garage makes you an automobile.
Paul travelled to Jersalem to ask the apostles what the Gentiles needed to practice to become Christians.
That list was:
Do not worship idols.
Do not commit fornacation.
Do not eat meat sacrificed to idols.
With that said, as Christians we must use the Bible as a roadmap,a rule book,or our guidelines for living our life pleasing to God. To practice that we must be familiar with what the Bible says. Familarity can be Bible study and church attendence.
Obedience to Gods and his Word is the pinnacle of our committ ment to God. To accomplish this I think that belief in God and faith in God is necessary. These will bring forth actions or works in our lives.
God chose the sheading of blood for remission. We must belive that Jesus died on the cross and shead his blood for the remission of our sins.
Man has made a mess of rules and regulations to obey making them absolutely necessary before we can associate with their "brand" of religion.

[dverna]

As to attending church....for me it is beneficial.

The pastor at the church I attend is not very good. He tends to “twist” the Word or cherry pick passages. When my red flag goes up, it forces me to study the Bible to see if what the pastor is saying is factual. Many times it is not and sometimes it is close...and so I learn through the process.

[AnthonyB]

Have you called him on it?
Tony

[Markopolo]

Arguing doctrine or calling out the pastor is prolly not the point of going. The point of going is for the saints to gather. Even if I don’t agree with what is being taught, or a pastors point of teaching, if I focus on what I am there for, there is something to learn. If you go to get your weekly teaching, then your missing it... go, keep your eyes on God, and let the others do whatever they do. We can only control ourselves. I notice when My attention is on god, I hardly even notice the other folks and what they say or do. That is why I go. My teachings happen on my own in the weeee hours of the morning when all is quiet and there are no distractions...

Just my 2 cents.... what the heck do I know anyway..

Marko

[Ickisrulz]

Our assembling together, as in a normal church service, involves a person called to the ministry providing some king of lesson or message. If the congregation gets nothing from this time, or the message contains serious errors, an important part of the service is missing. Your time is in fact being wasted. If you are not getting what you should from the service you can find another church body or let the pastor know. It could be he thinks he's doing a good job and has never been given any feedback.

Paul tells us:

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Some people have the idea that occupying a seat in church does something for God. The reality is that our time in church is supposed to do something for us. This is why God encourages us to "Gather together." We are reminded of God's goodness during the worship portion. We are comforted, educated or challenged when the sermon is given. We are encouraged when interacting with other Christians during the fellowship period.

[1hole]

Knowing scripture certainly isn't a requirement for salvation. (Nor, contrary to common belief, is living a "good" life.) But the Bible IS God's chosen method of conversing with us and we sure won't develop any strong relationships with anyone we casually know but don't listen too.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

To the OP.

I share much of your experience. Raised Catholic, educated Catholic, then left. . . but now I'm back!

I was always annoyed by Bible-thumping because it presupposes a non-believer already regards the Bible as an authority.

Another thing that annoyed me was the namby-pamby image of faithful men. If you're old enough you may remember M*A*S*H with Fr. Mulcahey as the tolken religious character. Or, maybe the Simpsons' neighbor Ned Flanders. It was like the doctor was drunk when they did the circumcision.

As for following rules: Can I ask you some questions?

Do you think you can get to heaven without loving God?
Can you love God without following His rules?
What are his rules?
Can you pick and choose the rules?
Are there some rules that are Big rules and others that are small rules?
If so, how do you tell which is which?

[P Flados]

Although raised Catholic, I left the church as a young adult. Later tried a non-denominational and then later tried a baptist church.

If one is a believer, he as accepted Christ as his Lord.

Christ wants you to be a light unto a world of darkness. This "light" reflects both your actions and your words.

This "light" from any "faithful" christian includes being ready to share the Gospel.

If you do not at least understand key points from the Bible, how can you effectively share the Gospel.

I am not good at the chapter and verse type quotes.

I feel that my church attendance eventually exposed me to "good preaching" (that matches up with Bible). This has been adequate for me to do my role (for the most part) as a member of the church body doing the "work of the church" (try to reach the lost, grow and support the saved).

A person may have accepted Christ, but if that person is not supporting the "work of the church" I would have are hard time describing that person as being faithful.

[Wayne Smith]

Bishop Anslem said "Testify to God, if necessary, use words". I think that answers your question, and from a Catholic Bishop, as well. The basic point is that if my life does not back up my words my words are useless.

Do I teach with Scripture? Yes, but only when the person is already believing and willing to understand further what God says.

[468]

To the OP.

I share much of your experience. Raised Catholic, educated Catholic, then left. . . but now I'm back!

I was always annoyed by Bible-thumping because it presupposes a non-believer already regards the Bible as an authority.

Another thing that annoyed me was the namby-pamby image of faithful men. If you're old enough you may remember M*A*S*H with Fr. Mulcahey as the tolken religious character. Or, maybe the Simpsons' neighbor Ned Flanders. It was like the doctor was drunk when they did the circumcision.

As for following rules: Can I ask you some questions?

Do you think you can get to heaven without loving God?
Can you love God without following His rules?
What are his rules?
Can you pick and choose the rules?
Are there some rules that are Big rules and others that are small rules?
If so, how do you tell which is which?

BJJ, great comments on Bible thumpers and TV characters.

Before I answer, is this a test? ...LOL

BTW...great question to which I do not have full answers.

Let's focus on the rules, if that's OK. To which rules are we referring? The 10 Commandments? Jesus' 3 Commandments? Implied rules stated by John in Romans? The rules stated in Leviticus? (the latter playing into your big rule/small rule query)

...and thanks for engaging.

[468]

Wayne, just my personal thing here, but I don't hold Catholic "elders" in high esteem. So I can't really fall back on something just because they said...

That's just me.

[wv109323]

To the original question"Can you be faithful without quoting scripture?" I think about several people before there was Scripture. Noah found grace, God found favor in Abraham,Abraham paid tithes and Job was described as "perfect". All this was before the Scripture was recorded. So yes you can be faithful without quoting Scripture,but these people had a relationship with God. God and his angels appeared directly before these along with other representatives to guide them in their lives of service to Him.
Today our main direction is the Bible. Also our commandment is teaching and baptizing to persuade others to take up the faith. We must have answers " to convert" the unknowing ,unfaithful and unbelieving. Those answers must be Biblical based to be correct. So knowledge of the Bible is necessary to properly carry out his Commandments.

[468]

...So knowledge of the Bible is necessary to properly carry out his Commandments.

So...one needs to read the Bible to understand what “Thou shalt not kill” means?

[Ickisrulz]

So...one needs to read the Bible to understand what “Thou shalt not kill” means?

I suppose some people just might. I personally have never met someone who thought murder as OK. On the other hand, I have met people who felt stealing was an acceptable practice.

Paul talked about the way SOME people who did not have the Law did SOME of the things the Law required instinctively:

"Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right." (Romans 2:14-15)

Nevertheless, in order to have the most complete revelation of (the Christian) God, one cannot get away from the Bible. While God's power and wisdom can be inferred from observing nature, an explanation of his loving personality originates from the Bible.