Lee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters SupplyRotoMetals2Wideners
Titan ReloadingInline FabricationRepackbox

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 40 of 40

Thread: Notes on fireforming Ackley Improved cases

  1. #21
    Boolit Master dh2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ft.Bragg,NC
    Posts
    551
    I have both a 25-06 AI and 280Nosler AI , I started forming both with factory ammunition some of these cases are over 7 years old and going strong, the 280 Nosler AI does use some factory cases, after that cases have been formed using the 10Gr. of X700 topped off with cream of wheat .
    to reduce the load below the book, sounds like a bad idea in many ways to me even to form a case

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    England,Ar
    Posts
    5,012
    The only AI that I have is a 22-250. It was built using a new barrel not a rechambered factory barrel. Case capacity is something like 1/2 grain of alcohol less than the 220 Swift cases that I have measured. The velocity is real close to published 220 Swift velocity and I use 220 Swift loading data to load with. The AI version does seem to stretch quite a bit less. It also does not feed through the magazine as well as its tapered brother does. I use a max load for the parent cartridge for fire forming.

    For what its worth, some rifle smiths think you should set the barrel back a few thousands of an inch before rechambering to an AI cartridge to insure getting the correct headspace.

    Truthfully I'm not sure the AI thing is worth the cost of additional dies, ect. But its something different which is enough for some of us. I doubt that a Prairie Dog knows or cares that he was hit by a bullet going 4000fps rather than one going only 3800!!
    Last edited by lightman; 03-07-2019 at 08:16 PM.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master 5Shot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Colbert, WA
    Posts
    664
    Quote Originally Posted by lightman View Post
    For what its worth, some rifle smiths think you should set the barrel back a few thousands of an inch before rechambering to an AI cartridge to insure getting the correct headspace.

    Truthfully I'm not sure the AI thing is worth the cost of additional dies, ect. But its something different which is enough for some of us. I doubt that a Prairie Dog knows or cares that he was hid by a bullet going 4000fps rather than one going only 3800!!

    Yes, the barrel does need to be set back before rechambering. The AI chamber is shorter than the parent by several thousandths. As for any benefit, I would agree that there really isn't any. Wanting one is the only, and best, reason to have one made.
    If you live on the razor's edge and slip, you will die in two pieces

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    10,803
    Quote Originally Posted by 5Shot View Post
    . Wanting one is the only, and best, reason to have one made.
    I would argue with that statement. I strongly prefer a rimmed case in a single shot. I wanted a .25 caliber single shot. I also wanted it to be as close to my old 25-06 as possible. The 25-35 did not make it. The 25 Krag AI does. I'm not sorry I had it made.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  5. #25
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    2,959
    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    I know I am going to need flame proof pants after this but the P. O. Ackley reference books are the only ones I have not kept and I have hundreds. Just too much stuff that the claims fell short or were flat out wrong. At one time I drank the cool aid but after chambering a couple of dozen AI's in 7 different cartridges I have developed a mild to strong dislike for most of the AI's
    AMEN. And one of his acolytes is carrying on the tradition.
    flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo

  6. #26
    Boolit Master


    Walks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    1,223
    I've had .25-06 for 40yrs, an improved for 30yrs. I seat the bullet out to jam into the rifling with a max charge of powder.

    I was REALLY surprised when I got a Chronograph a year later and found an an increase of 50fps.

    You pays your money and you takes your chance.
    I HATE auto-correct


    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

    My Experience and My Opinion, are just that, Mine.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
    Tom W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Phenix City, Alabama
    Posts
    3,473
    In my 30/30 A.I. which is a NEF single shot, I normally use 6.6 grains of Bullseye or 11.6 grains of Herco to fireform, with a 160 gr. Lee
    309-160-R, an old single cavity, or a 170 grain double cavity Ranch Dog boolit.

    I DO have quite a few boxes of "standard' 30/30 loads that I loaded up years ago. They get fired when I have the chance to get to an outdoor range.

    The Bullseye loads are fairly light and don't beat me up when shooting them. The cases form just fine.

    For both of the above loads I just use Lee dippers.
    Tom
    μολὼν λαβέ


    Did I ever mention that I hate to trim brass?

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
    Tom W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Phenix City, Alabama
    Posts
    3,473
    In my 30/30 A.I. which is a NEF single shot, I normally use 6.6 grains of Bullseye or 11.6 grains of Herco to fireform, with a 160 gr. Lee
    309-160-R, an old single cavity, or a 170 grain double cavity Ranch Dog boolit.

    I DO have quite a few boxes of "standard' 30/30 loads that I loaded up years ago. They get fired when I have the chance to get to an outdoor range.

    The Bullseye loads are fairly light and don't beat me up when shooting them. The cases form just fine.

    For both of the above loads I just use Lee dippers.
    Tom
    μολὼν λαβέ


    Did I ever mention that I hate to trim brass?

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    10,803
    Tom, the rimmed cases are an exception since they headspace on the rim. This is for rimless cases that can change the headspace if they shrink.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
    Tom W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Phenix City, Alabama
    Posts
    3,473
    Even at that in my 30-06 A.I. I use the afore mentioned boolits and either 13 gr. of Red Dot or 14 gr. of Green Dot to fireform. It works just wonderfully.....
    Tom
    μολὼν λαβέ


    Did I ever mention that I hate to trim brass?

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    New York, the empire State
    Posts
    1,184
    I current have only 1/ AI rifle. 25 krag improved. i generally do not fire form. my process is to neck up a 30/40 Krag case until almost straight . Them bring the entire neck down and final form In an AI trim and form.. this works for me quite well. . a little more work but as it said better for me
    NRA Endowment Member
    International Ammunition Association
    ARTCA
    New York, the Empire State Where Empires were Won and Lost

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    799
    I chose the 375 Whelen or AI which ever you call it, I chose it because it gave me a good 375 calibre in a much shorter action than the 375 HH, shells are cheap and easily formed with the cream of wheat method or a cast bullet, those who choose one of the AI rounds for mack 1 speeds are going to be disappointed in most cases. These rounds are called the AI family not the ASV for Ackley super velocity, I guess the message I am trying to convey is the reasons for doing an AI on your favourite caliber are many but speed is not usually one of them. I am pleased with my 375 Whelen and will only surrender it when my time on earth is up. Regards Stephen
    Last edited by Stephen Cohen; 04-04-2019 at 11:06 PM. Reason: spelling

  13. #33
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    1,088
    I was reading P.O. Ackley's loading manual the other day it it struck me that he strongly supports using full loads to fireform his cases. In fact, he states that if a light load is used it can shorten the case and change the headspace of that cartridge. This is potentially disasterous. He states cases and shows pictures of rifles blown up by this practice.
    I can understand why a not fully formed shoulder can be dangerous, but a shortened case is not a problem. On the contrary, an improved case which hasn't shrunk in length could indicate that the case has stretched lengthwise.

    I used to make 7x55 AI from 6.5x55 by fireforming with normal loads. The cases would remain the same length or even stretch a little. But once in a while a case would show sign of head separation and had to be rejected. Once I started to use hydraulic pressure to form the cases, the cases would actually shrink to 54mm in length and all signs of head separation was gone.

    I guess I wasn't careful enough to eliminate all headspace when fireforming; The front part of the case would then cling to the chamber while the stretching would occur in a narrow band near the bottom where the inside taper starts.
    Cap'n Morgan

  14. #34
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    2,959
    Yes, what he was talking about was shortening the base-to-gage-line dimension, not the overall.

    A dodge that can be used with care when fireforming with light loads is to lightly lubricate the cases. This will let them slip back to the breech face so that the shoulder forms correctly. Thorough cleaning of the chamber afterward is of course mandatory. I've used this with loads of 6-7 grains of Red Dot and a cast bullet with success. I used a light coating of RCBS case lube, which is water-soluble and thus cleans up easily.
    flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo

  15. #35
    17 Ackley Hornet
    223 AI
    22/250 AI
    22-243 AI
    6/250 AI
    6 Rem AI
    7/08 AI
    280 AI

    I work up a load for accuracy that I will be hunting with in all the varmint loads, fire form while hunting.

    With big game rounds, I fire form with cream of wheat and bullseye, but I really do not like it. You have to check the cases to make sure no Cream of Wheat is left in the case in the 280 AI. Next firing on the Big Game cases is also a full power load, darn near max in most cases where best accuracy is found.

    I have heard of fire forming using slippery cases, but I do not like the idea of a potential mess.

    Only the novice will fire form using minimum loads in an Ackley case or non Ackley case, case stretching is sure to folllow on minimum loads...I ruined 500 cases in 6 Remington learning that lesson.

    Many gunsmiths have no idea how to head space for an Ackley case, I set mine up short with the ever so much feel on the bolt when I chamber new brass. Case life is indefinite when a chamber is set up with ever so slight case crush.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
    Tom W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Phenix City, Alabama
    Posts
    3,473
    "Only the novice will fire form using minimum loads in an Ackley case or non Ackley case, case stretching is sure to folllow on minimum loads..."


    I can't agree with that. I've been fireforming my 30-06 A.I since the late 1980's. I will admit to not having the 30/30 A.I.for a year yet.....
    Tom
    μολὼν λαβέ


    Did I ever mention that I hate to trim brass?

  17. #37
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    10,803
    30-30 doesn't matter - it headspaces on the rim. Same as my 25 Krag AI.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  18. #38
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Switzerland of Ohio
    Posts
    2,959
    My first cast-bullet rifle was my Dad's Model 336 - .35 Remington. I learned the lesson about rimless cases pushing the shoulder back when fired with reduced loads the hard way. Being (back then) a rank noob, I accumulated several dozen cases that needed to have the shoulder pushed forward again. Used the "slippery case" method with a modest charge of XMP-5744 with complete success. I'm sure I still have those cases in rotation. Lube used was RCBS case lube. Being water-soluble, it is very easy to eliminate it from the chamber once done.
    Last edited by uscra112; 05-16-2019 at 10:44 AM.
    flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo

  19. #39
    I load for both the 2506ai and 22-250ai and I use a full charge load with the bullet seated into the lands.
    I get great accuracy fire forming that way and perfectly formed brass.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
    Tom W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Phenix City, Alabama
    Posts
    3,473
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Smith View Post
    30-30 doesn't matter - it headspaces on the rim. Same as my 25 Krag AI.
    I think you said that once before.
    Tom
    μολὼν λαβέ


    Did I ever mention that I hate to trim brass?

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check