GreenDot -- 38 Special/357 Mag 44 Special/44 Mag target loads

[JBinMN]

Earlier Post deleted...


While I took the time to give Mr. Gibson the answer he asked about regarding what alloy he might use to test round using GD, even though I did not understand why he would ask such things, being that his past experiences should have answered such a question, I reckon Mr. Gibson is pretty capable of figuring out where to start with alloys at the GD velocities offered in the Alliant data.

See post #23 for my "short" suggestion on what alloy to use.

[Shuz]

Larry--I suggest you use 1/2 COWW+2%tin &1/2 pure Pb like you use in your Lyman 429640 Devastator loads.
Thanks,
Ray

[JBinMN]

Hell, I just should have said,

"I'd use any alloy that is around 10-14BHN to start out, considering any alloy components you would have available to use,", and just left it at that...

But, "NO"... I gotta make sure to try & not leave anything misunderstood.

"My mistake""... Oh well...

[dogdoc]

What’s the matter with the data in 2004 alliant manual? I am using red dot data right now in my 357 mag from that era because I could not find new data.. No problems. Data listed may not be max pressure but max for what they think the intended purpose is. (Like cowboy shooting or midrange use.)whatever they think the usage will be. You can see a lot of variation from manual to manual. The older data list pressure in the alliant manual. But if you are not comfortable just do not use it. I think in the old days we may not have been careful enough but now I see people worrying to the extreme. I see post where people woory about a tenth or two variation with their powder measure over max. If things were that dangerous most of us would be blown up by now. Use your chronograph , if velocity is way out of line compared to the book(considerbarrel length ),then pressure is likely out of line

[Shuz]

Hell, I just should have said,

"I'd use any alloy that is around 10-14BHN to start out, considering any alloy components you would have available to use,", and just left it at that...

But, "NO"... I gotta make sure to try & not leave anything misunderstood.

"My mistake""... Oh well...

Relax JB, Larry's "on it", and I know from past experience, he'll do a thorough job.

[JBinMN]

Relax JB, Larry's "on it", and I know from past experience, he'll do a thorough job.

Yeah, I reckon he'll do just fine without my input.

Even though he asked, & I tried to oblige...

I have those moulds so using them poses no problem. Any particular alloy?

No matter...

To all that want to try GD in their loads...

G'luck!

[dverna]

I have found that Alliant responds quickly to inquiries. BTW, there is data they do not publish for whatever reason.

[OnHoPr]

Back in the 70s I used to shoot quite a bit of 357 target loads with a school/neighbor bud. We tried numerous powders and finally stuck with GD. We pushed a 158 gr SWC about 1050 fps and it was quite accurate out of all the pistolas we used. I can't remember what the grains was. But, back then there was quite a bit of data info on GD. I just read a post a few days ago from Ed Harris mentioning that a good load for the 44 special using GD was 4 gr.

[LAH]

Here's a few lines from Paco Kelly that might help.

THE FORGOTTEN POWDER IN HANDGUNS...
I have some fairly hard wadcutters at 147 grains in .358 caliber. I load them over 7 grains of Green Dot in 357 cases with standard WW primers, and get 1275 fps from my Colt 357 revolver with outstanding accuracy...I use ApacheBlu lube and the fouling is non existent. I once put five rounds of 200 grain 41 magnum HPs over the screens at an average of 1355 fps loaded over 8.8 grains of Green Dot from a short barreled Ruger SA. 11.8 grains under a 240 grain cast 44 mag bullet in 44 mag cases gives 1310fps from my short barreled Ruger SBH. 11 grains under a 260 grain cast .452 bullet loaded in a 45 colt case out of my Ruger 45 colt short barrel gives 1200+ fps....all with great accuracy.

Using standard WW primers...this powder burns clean, drops well from powder measures..and is very consistent from lot to lot...and doesn’t have the shift in velocity from differing positions in the cartridge case like other fast powders...it’s the one faster type powder I don’t bother with fillers...and as I’ve shown above, it is great for short barreled handguns. So why is it so unknown outside of shotgunners? Beats me...but I use it.

Improved Green Dot powder came out in 1971, to better the 1965 offering. Which makes the load data given from 1970 and before suspect...since this improved Green Dot has a faster pressure curve. With the old data I would cut the loads by two grains and work up. Green Dot is slower burning than Red Dot, it has a 20% nitroglycerin content and is at almost the same burning rate as International Clays, and close to IMR PB though PB is slower slightly. And Unique is even slower. It is also excellent for medium loads from 800 fps thru 1000 fps without shift variations and clean burning...but yet it will allow velocities with lighter bullets for the caliber to go into the 1300 fps range. And it works very well in light loads for rifle cartridges, especially with cast bullets. Green Dot like all the Dots and Unique is somewhat bulky, John Wooters once described it as "Fluffy". What ever, it bulks well in handgun cases. Like many shotgun powders Green Dot can be bought in multi-pound containers saving a good deal of money. I still can’t understand why it is not popular with more handgunners...especially those that shoot a good deal of medium loads......

[Shuz]

Lars,
Thanks for the enlightenment!
Ray

[Larry Gibson]

I found a bit of load data in the old Speer #9 manual using GD with swaged lead bullets in numerous pistol/revolver cartridges. I'll use that as my start loads in the 357 and 44 Magnums. Have the GD now so will cast some Lee TL 158 and 240 SWC with COWW +2% tin then mixed 50/50 with Pb. may take a couple weeks before I get the test done....

[Forrest r]

FWIW:
Back in the late 80's/early 90's I burned up a bunch of greendot in the 20ga & 12ga. Most shooters reloaded 12ga shells with reddot. It was extremely popular & a well known/well used powder for handgun & rifle bullets.

You couldn't use reddot in 20ga shells so you used greendot. Shot countless 1000's of 7/8OZ/1200fps/ 7 1/2 shot/14.3gr of greendot loads in ww cases using ww wads. Used that load on the skeet range & in the thick red brush hunting rabbits & grouse. Used to use the loads in this 1987 Hercules manual testing everything I could using greendot powder seeing how I'd buy it in #10 caddy's.
http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebie...cules_1987.pdf

Those loads listed in the link have pressures next to them & they were tested in 5.6"/5.7" bbl's.

Looking forward to Larry's testing to see how it compares to the 1987 Hercules manual. Along with the alliant 2003 manual with greendot/pressure listed loads.
http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebie...liant_2003.pdf

And the last year that alliant listed pressures in their reloading manuals, the 2005 manual with greendot loads and pressures listed.
http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebie...liant_2005.pdf

[dogdoc]

The 2005 data is not that old. I do not know of any blowups with that data or any other published data from any time? A typo is possible I know. I look forward to his results but I use the old alliant data now for several things. There just is not as much handgun loads with shotgun powders as there used to be (ie red dot/promo). I think the manufacturerers just want to sell more specialized powders now. The want you to use a different powder for every application and that makes good business sense since they exist to sell powder.

[kfin]

You guys are going to town. Hadn't been on here for a few days. Waiting to see how Larry's test comes out. I will probably try a few different loads next weekend if all goes as planned. Thanks for all of the conversation on this topic.

[Larry Gibson]

It never fails.....when you look for something you vaguely recall having you can't find it.....then when looking for something else........you find what you were looking for in the first place........

Found my old Hercules Powder Guide dated April 1968......

Attachment 237317

.......and look at all that Green Dot data..........that's the data I'll go by for my test.

Warning

Testing of Alliant Green Dot in the 44 Magnum shows this data to give very excessive pressure. Current Alliant data for Green Dot should be used.

Attachment 237318

[Larry Gibson]

Finally got a bit of free time and got the Lee TL 158 and 240 gr 357 and 44 bullets cast. Letting them age 7 - 10 days then will load and test.

Here's the 44s

Attachment 237787

[RedHawk357Mag]

I for one and I am sure others feel the same way look forward to to this test. Thanks for taking the time to do this and sharing.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Green Frog]

Larry, I remember having a couple of copies of that very brochure many moons ago. Thanks for posting that key page. Let's see, Green Dot, green ink, just in time for St Patrick's day... we have a winnah!

I was hoping against hope there would be data for 32 S&W and sure enough, there it was!

Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

I conducted the pressure tests of new Alliant Green Dot yesterday (March 19, 2019) in the 357 Magnum and the 44 magnum.

Initially I started with the 357 magnum using the Lee TL358-158-SWC cast of COWWs + 2% tin, sized .358 and lubed with BAC. Cases were Winchester 357 brass and WSP primers were used. The bullets were seated to the top lube groove in the bullet and a roll crimp was applied. Testing was done with a Contender using a strain gauge located over the chamber at the SAAMI prescribed location. The Oehler M43 PBL was used to measure the velocity and pressure. The barrel length of the test barrel is 7.94". Target was at 50 yards for group size.

I started off with a "reference" test string of 14 gr 2400 under the 358156. The resulting velocity was 1537 fps at 34,900 psi. That is within the test to test variation of that load so all appeared well.

For the Green Dot test I had loaded increments of 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, 7.0 and 7.5 gr in 10 shot test strings with the 7.5 gr load being the load listed in the 1968 Hercules manual.

During the first test of the 5.5 gr load I began to have technical problems. Some loads would appear normal, some were erratic and some did not record complete data. In selecting out the shots that appeared "good" I found the 5.5 gr load was running at 31,000 psi! Further testing suggested the 6.0 gr load was running at 37,300 psi, the 6.5 gr load at 41.400 psi and the 7.0 gr load at 43,200 psi. I did not test the 7.5 gr load.

Another test string of the "reference" load revealed the same erratic readings. Thus I'm not betting these were correct though I did get a stuck cast with one of the 7.0 gr loads necessitating removal with pliers the psi was definitely there. Inspection when I got home revealed the scope base had become slightly loose and the ground was lost. I have fixed that problem and may run the 357 magnum test again in the near future.

At this point of the testing, in the 357 magnum, I would not recommend a load over 5.5 gr with the Lee 158 TL bullet seated as such.

After the 357 test I switched over to the 44 Magnum. Again the test barrel was Contender at 8.4". The initial test bullet was the Lee TL430-240-SWC cast of COWW + 2% tin, sized .430 and lubed with BAC. It was seated to the 1st lube groove and a roll crimp was applied there. The AOL was 1.600". I loaded 9 shot increments of 7.0, 9.0, 10.0, 11.0, and 11.5 gr (the load listed per the Hercules 1968 manual) of Alliant Green Dot.

The 7.0 gr load was very pleasant at 1037 fps with a psi of 22,200. No abnormalities were noted. Accuracy for the 8 shots was just under 4" at 50 yards.

Next I tested the 9 gr load and got a very amazing surprise! the velocity was 1163 and the psi had jumped up to the SAAMI MAP for the 44 magnum at 35,100. That was a whole lot for just a 2 gr increase! Accuracy was very poor with the bullets barely staying on the target paper (NRA 50 yard pistol target).

I tried the 10 gr load and the 3rd case stuck and had to be pulled out with the pliers. The psi of that 3rd shot was 45,700. The 1st two shots were in the 40,000+ range. I suspended the test at that point with the Lee TL bullet.

I had also loaded tests of the 7.0 gr load under a 260 gr commercial cast "Keith" type bullet and also under my own cast (COWWs + 2% tin) RCBS 44-250-K which weighed 253 gr.

The commercial cast bullet ran 994 fps at 20,600 psi with a 3.5" group with nice even time/pressure traces.

The RCBS 44-250-K ran 1004 fps at 19,700 psi with the best group at 1.525" also having nice smooth time/pressure traces.

So you ask; "why did the heavier bullets give less psi with the 7 gr load?" That's a good question and I've come to believe the seating depth (that is not the AOL BTW) is the answer. When we look and the 3 bullets and how deeply they were seated in the case we see immediately the Lee 240 gr bullet was the seated the deepest. Then the 260 gr commercial bullet. The RCBS bullet was seated the less leaving more "case capacity". A further comparison of the Lee TL 240 gr bullet with an 8.0 gr load will be conducted comparing different seating depths of the same bullet [crimped in 1st lube groove vs crimped in the 2nd lube groove].

At this time, in the 44 magnum, I consider the Max load of Green Dot powder under the Lee 240 gr TL bullet seated to the 1st lube groove to be 9 gr. I suggest, if Green Dot is used with this bullet seated such that 7 - 8 gr would be a good "working range" to test in a 44 Magnum revolver.

I have posted a warning in the previous post containing the old Hercules manual not to use the Green Dot data contained thereon.

BTW; I also had 10 rounds left of Magtech 240 gr SP which I had used a "reference" ammunition with this barrel. I shot those last yesterday. The barrel was fouled with all the previous cast bullet shooting so I just shot a factory round "on top" of the cast bullet fouling. We often hear dire warnings not to do so as pressures might be extremely high so I thought we just might see. That 1st shot of the factory magnum load ran 1403 fps at 24,700 psi. The next 9 shots ran 1440 fps at 28,100 psi which is within the test to test variation of this box of factory ammunition. Seems that 1st shot through the cast bullet fouled barrel gave less velocity and considerable less psi well outside the psi ES of the other 9 shots. Hmmmmmm.........

[fecmech]

Larry- I have a 2006 Alliant Manual and it lists a max of 6.0/GD with a 158 LSWC at 34000PSI for the .357. For the .38 spl it's 3.5/GD/158 lswc@15600PSI. For the .44 mag they use a 240 gr. Lead GC with a max load of 9.5 grs at 34800 psi. Hope this helps

PS. Their oal with their 158 LSWC was 1.58" with a Fed 200 primer