3/4oz loads in 12ga ???

[turtlezx]

I have a old savage 720 auto loader A5 CLONE
Gun cycles perfect with light factory shells set on heavy.
Moved the friction ring to the light load setting getting it ready to work up loads for the 3/4oz payload
componets rem gun club 1x hulls clay buster 3/4oz wads cheddite 209 primers reddot powder
calls for 17grs powder tried it wont cycle gun upped powder 19 then 21 grs got to 23 grs before cycling

is this normal??
is the presure ok at 23grs recoil is still lighter than factory lt loads

looking for your imput on this
thanx turtlzx

[RED BEAR]

I ran into same problem with new tri star auto was loading 17 gr red dot no cycling went to 19 gr still no cycle .but i am using 1 1/8 oz load .works great with 25 gr unique. I was using these loads in an old double am still trying to get things straightened out . I would thought 23 gr didn't sound that high but the max load i can find with red dot is 22 gr with 7/8 oz load and they are both over 10000 lbs of pressure so i would go easy if i were you .

[Cast_outlaw]

Are you using it for hunting or target like trap, skeet, or sporting clays if so hunting guns tend not to have the duty cycle that sporting, trap or skeet guns do also the gas systems and are set up for the lighter target loads but with your light payload it might not make a difference maybe try switching to a faster powder

[megasupermagnum]

I know A5's can be finicky, I have no idea about any clones. 3/4 oz is getting rather out there for 12 gauge. It's light in 16, and is more at home in 20 gauge. Not that you can't make it work, but I doubt any semi-auto was ever made with such loads in mind.

I'm not finding any 3/4 oz data with Reddot either. Your charges of 19-21 grains looks right at home for 1 ounce loads, the practical minimum of 12 gauge in my opinion.

[turtlezx]

set up for skeet only i understand going to a lighter shot charge you will be needing more powder to equal pressure of more shot loads

[W.R.Buchanan]

It's not the pressure it is the momentum of the payload that is not cycling the gun. The A5 is a Long Recoil action and the "Equal and Opposite Reaction" must take place in order for the gun to cycle.

With the gun set up for light loads you need to duplicate the momentum of at least a 1 oz load at 1300 fps. The only way to do that is to increase velocity or weight of the payload. 3/4 oz is really light for 12 ga. Maybe some 7/8 oz loads would work, if not then back to 1 oz.

Also make sure the outside of the mag tube is thoroughly lubricated so the friction ring slides easily..

Randy

[15meter]

I've used Clays for 3/4 oz. loads in pumps and over/under's--Winchester 97 for Cowboy, Winchester Lightweight Model 12 for Skeet and several over/under's for Skeet. Great economical load. Never had a target on Cowboy not go down or a clay pigeon break if I did my part.

It is a listed load from Hodgdon. No idea if it will operate an automatic. I know guys @ the club who use 3/4 oz. loads that work Remington 1100/11-87's but I don't know what load they are using.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I once made a shorter friction ring from brass for an A5 to make it function with 27 grams target loads. You could try and remove the friction ring completely and see what happens. A few shots will not damage the gun in any way.

[turtlezx]

anyone know what the pressure would be with 23gr of red dot 3/4oz

[W.R.Buchanan]

BPI Might. I suggest calling them and asking about your proposed loads, they have pressure testing equipment and lots more knowledge doing this sort of thing than all of us combined.

You might also call Art's Gun Shop in Hillsboro MO. They are the absolute A5 Gurus and have heard just about everything concerning that gun. They are more than willing to share their experience and maybe they can offer a fix for your problem.

I know this for a fact. The action requires X amount of force to overcome the Recoil Spring and Hammer Spring.

Momentum is Mass x Velocity.

There are 2 variables in play here and if you have less of A then you need more of B or vice versa. Simple as that.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

anyone know what the pressure would be with 23gr of red dot 3/4oz

Take this for what it is, but Alliant lists 22 grains of Reddot for 7/8 oz at 7,100 psi. I would not be scared to try 23 grains with 3/4 oz. Pressure will be safe, but you will be up there in velocity, maybe as high as 1400 fps.

[turtlezx]

thanx mega good info ??? i wont have to lead the birds as much
should be faster yet then at 22grs and 3/4oz might be in the 1450 to 1500 fps range

[megasupermagnum]

Yes, the numbers I quoted are right on the Alliant website, you can find them yourself.

I just ran some recoil numbers, being as the A5 action works based on that inertia. 1 ounce at 1300 fps is about as light as they come, and to match the recoil, it looks like 3/4 oz will have to be pushed to a blazing 1650 fps. If your gun functions at 23 grains, good. I'd try some on the patterning board before you load too many.

[Boolit_Head]

I can't find my notes from when I did the last batch of 3/4 loads but yours are pretty close. I'm thinking the powder might be light, mine might have been a bit more. With the A5 being a recoil operated shotgun Light loads may not be in it's wheelhouse. Mine cycled my 1100 just fine.

[izzyjoe]

I'm with WRB on this one, I have several Brownings, a REM 11 and a 720 savage, and they need at least a 1oz. Load to cycle properly, even set up for light loads. You don't need a lot of oil on the mag tube either, just oil it with 30w, and wipe of the excess! I've had best results with 1 1/8 loads overall. You might be able to get it to work a fair amount, but it will take some tinkering. And on the magnums, forget it!

[RED BEAR]

Bpi list 22 gr of red dot at 10500 pressure i use alliant data a lot but i will say that the data they list is max it is also a good deal above other sources. They make the powder but some of the loads i have run into are quite hot my 32 hr the load listed in alliant load manual is more than 10% over the max loads listed in other sources. I use there manual but be careful with it i have had ruptured cases using there data.

[megasupermagnum]

Bpi list 22 gr of red dot at 10500 pressure i use alliant data a lot but i will say that the data they list is max it is also a good deal above other sources. They make the powder but some of the loads i have run into are quite hot my 32 hr the load listed in alliant load manual is more than 10% over the max loads listed in other sources. I use there manual but be careful with it i have had ruptured cases using there data.

My personal experiences is that Alliant, Hodgdon, Lee and Lyman manuals are usually the most accurate there are. It's pretty well known that Ballistic Products does not pressure test all of the loads they publish, and it has gotten them into trouble in the past. Still, that number doesn't look too far off.

[stubshaft]

My A5 wouldn't cycle with 3/4 oz. loads so I went up to 7/8 oz. with 19.5 Red Dot, DR-XXL wad (orange in Federal and Pink in Remingtons).

[turtlezx]

ok gun cycled 80rds perfectly with 23gr redot> felt recoil is less than factory 1oz lt loads
BUT couldnt the persure still be high ?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Measure the case head before and after after firing, then do the same thing with a factory loaded shell and compare them. Also look at the primer to see if it is flattened.

With an A5 set up for light loads, a hot load will cause the bolt to hit the back of the receiver hard. This happens alot if the gun is not set up for heavy loads and you fire a steady diet of them. Eventually it knocks the back of the receiver out. This is the extreme case.

I don't think you are even close to that end. A5's are pretty stout guns.

Randy