Ruger old army load help

[Handshaker]

I bought this a couple years ago unfired nib with the conversion cylinder and i added new grips. I am ready to start shooting it. Does anyone have any load data for Alliant black MZ and trail boss powders for hornady .457 round balls and .452 jacketed 230gr flatpoint for the conversion cylinder?
thanks

[stubshaft]

The original cylinder was never rated for Trail Boss.

[jdfoxinc]

Cowboy load data for cartridges. The round ball cylinder will take any load that is not compressed. All of the BP substitutes produce similar pressures to BP.

[Handshaker]

thanks as i am new to reloading BP, can you please point me in the right direction of the info?
thanks

[Nobade]

The manufacturer web sites should have load data for their powders.

[Handshaker]

I tried that for the black mz nothing there.

[garandsrus]

The manual that cane with your pistol has loading data

[Handshaker]

DAH you are right, lol. This is what it says A good starting accuracy load, using a pure lead .457” diameter ball, is 20 grains
of FFFg. What is FFFg? Would that be the same about of powder as black mz?
thanks for the help. I am male,usually dont read manuals, lol

[Outpost75]

Old Fidonet article by Ed Harris, rescued from the Man Cave:

To: All Message #: 5492
From: Ed Harris Submitted: 09 Aug 93 17:25:00
Subject: Best Loads for the Ruger Status: Public
Received: No Group: FIREARMS (19)

RE: Best Loads for the Ruger Old Army
Best Loads for the Ruger Old Army

By C.E. Harris

Round balls are still the best choice for general use in either
light or heavy loads. They are easy to cast, accurate, and
effective for small game. A round ball at higher velocity is a
better killer and more accurate than the conicals. I see no good
reason to use the conical bullets at all in cap & ball revolvers.
There are other, better options, if you want a heavier bullet than
a ball.

The Lee 200-gr. REAL is the best choice for a wadcutter bullet in
most .44 cap & ball revolvers. Its tapered dimensions are
adaptable to a variety of chamber diameters and it is easy to load.
A charge of 20-25 grs. bulk measure of FFFg or Pyrodex P, using a
.38 Special or .357 case for a measure approximates the ballistics
of .45 ACP wadcutter ammunition. In the Ruger Old Army or Colt
Walker replicas, 30-35 grs. bulk measure of black powder or
Pyrodex, using a .44 Special or .44 Magnum case for a measure fills
the chambers, leaving enough room to seat the bullet properly over
a wad. This load produces 2 to 2-1/2" groups at 25 yards, about
900 f.p.s. and 360 ft.-lbs. of energy.

The 250-gr. REAL bullet can be used with good effect in the Ruger
Old Army and Colt Walker replicas. It is both highly accurate and
authoritative when the chambers are filled to capacity with 30 grs.
bulk measure (a .44 Special case full) of black powder or Pyrodex
and no wad. This load produces 880-980 f.p.s., depending upon the
powder type and granulation, groups of 2" at 25 yards and generates
energies from 430-530 ft/lbs! You don't need an over-powder wad
with the 250 REAL in the Old Army when loading more than 25 grs.
bulk measure (a .357 Magnum case full).

A wadcutter bullet can be sized and pre-lubricated like a
conventional bullet, eliminating the need to apply grease over the
ball. The bullet diameter should be 0.0015" larger than the
largest chamber. This makes loading easy, while ensuring a
positive seal for safety and a tight fit so that the bullets don't
creep forward in recoil with heavy loads. I lubricate REAL bullets
for my Old Army in a .454" sizer, and fill the grooves with a soft
home-made lube made from 50-50 paraffin and Vaseline, with either
4 oz. of heavy white mineral oil or RCBS Case Lube II added per
pound. This is easier to use and stiffer than Crisco, doesn't melt
in hot weather, and keeps the gun clean.

With Hodgdon Pyrodex it is essential that the charge be compressed
to eliminate all airspace, otherwise hangfires or misfires will
occur. With charges less than 20 grains bulk measure in the
replicas or 25 grains in the Old Army, a full stroke of the rammer
is inadequate to compress the charge unless a wad or other filler
is used. It is necessary to place a felt wad over the powder
charge, seat it to the maximum depth of the rammer and pour Farina
or Cream of Wheat, (dispensed from a catsup bottle) to fill the
chambers, then spin the cylinder to strike the filler off level
before seating the ball. If using enlongated bullets fill the
chambers to within 1/4" of the top. Seat the ball normally, with
a firm stroke in which you should feel the charge compress before
the end of the rammer stroke.

With black powder, failure to compress the powder results in lower
velocities, greater velocity variation and vertical stringing.
When using over 20 grains bulk measure in the 1860 Colt or 1858
Remingtons, or 25 grs. in the Ruger Old Army, an Ox-Yoke wad by
itself over the powder is adequate. With lighter charges, use
Farina or Cream of Wheat also. A wad isn't necessary with heavier
charges, but accuracy is better, velocities are higher, the bore
leads less and the gun is far easier to clean afterwards.

The loads in the table used backstop scrap from .38 wadcutter and
.22 rimfire bullets, 8 BHN, containing 1.5% antimony and 0.3% tin.
The results speak for themselves. Pure lead IS NOT ESSENTIAL!
Traditional wisdom states that the sprue of a round ball must be
placed up and centered for uniformity. If your mould produces a
distinct shoulder around the cut-off, this is true. This
precaution is unnecessary with balls cast in Lee moulds, which are
round any way you want to measure them. I never pay any attention
to the sprue. They shoot fine, so another myth bites the dust!

When the rear sight is bottomed out, on my Old Army, Ruger's
recommended load of 20 grs. of FFFg, strikes high in the ten-ring
of the 25-yard Timed and Rapid-Fire pistol target. A heavier load
of 35 grs. of FFFg hits at 12:00 in the nine ring. Heavier bullets
strike at the upper edge of the paper. The Ruger's front sight needs
to be 0.080" higher to permit greater flexibility in loads.

The Ruger Old Army is the finest cap & ball revolver ever produced.
Properly managed, it can be either a precision target arm or a
powerful hunting gun. The Ruger is far superior to anything else
out there. Mine is more accurate than any modern cartridge
revolver I've owned, except for "tricked out" custom target guns.
I know a half dozen other Old Army owners who feel the same way,
and know mine is not a fluke. I attribute this to the Ruger's
cylinder throats being smooth, round and ideally dimensioned,
.452", compared to a barrel groove diameter of .451". In addition,
the gun is perfectly timed, and the forcing cone smooth and
concentric. A well turned out percussion revolver gives better
bullet-to-bore alignment than a cartridge gun, because the bullet
is an exact fit to the chambers. In a cartridge gun the bullet and
cartridge must be somewhat smaller than the chambers to enter
freely, and there is always some misalignment and deformation.

When shooting black powder, bore condition is critical to maintain
accuracy. A load which groups 2" when fired from a clean bore will
double its group size within 30 rounds, if the bore is not cleaned.
Competitors using black powder, as opposed to Pyrodex, brush the
bore and chambers each time they reload, to maintain a consistent
bore condition. Cleaning during a shooting session is unnecessary
when using Pyrodex.

Black powder varies in quality and strength, even between different
lots of the same brand and granulation, so your results are not
repeatable over time. The Goex FFFg black powder used in the table
is of 1993 production and the stronger of two batches I tested.
Another lot of the same brand and granulation, old, gave over 100
f.p.s. lower velocity with the same charges. This is typical
experience with black powder. I prefer Pyrodex because it gives
better ballistic uniformity, less fouling, improved accuracy and
permits higher velocities while maintaining accuracy.

"Best Loads" For the Ruger Old Army
Average of Five, 6-Shot Groups at 25 yards, sandbag rests, Ox Yoke
wads over powder, and Lee Case Lube over ball unless otherwise stated.

BULLET POWDER CASE VEL@10' Avg. ES (ins.)
WEIGHT/TYPE DIPPER (f.p.s.)

.457 RB 20 FFFg .32-20 801, 43 Sd 1.84
Ruger's Recommended Load, no wad, Farina fill

.457 RB, 16.5 P .32-20 911, 22 Sd 1.91
Farina fill (20 grs. bulk measure)

.457 RB, 20 RS 44 Spl. 883, 30 Sd 1.80
No fill (30 grs. bulk measure)

.457 RB 30 FFFg .44 Spl. 971, 15 Sd 2.00
wad, no fill

.457 RB 35 FFFg .44 Mag. 1010, 9 Sd 2.13

.457 RB 30 RS .30-30 1201, 27 Sd 2.53
no wad, no fill (41 grs. bulk measure)

200 REAL 25 FFFg .357 Mag. 864, 7 Sd 2.01

200 REAL 20 RS .44 Spl. 836, 29 Sd 1.91
No fill (30 grs. bulk measure)

200 REAL 30 FFFg .44 Spl. 882, 16 Sd 2.13

200 REAL 25 RS .44 Mag. 914, 41 Sd 1.82
No fill (35 grs. bulk measure)

200 REAL 35 FFFg .44 Mag. 1017, 15 Sd 1.89
no wad, no fill (35 grs. bulk measure)

250 REAL 30 FFFg .44 Spl. 882, 12 Sd 1.60
No wad, no fill

250 REAL 25 RS 44 Mag. 913, 32 Sd 2.03
No wad, no fill (35 grs. bulk measure)

250 REAL 24 P 44 Spl. 982, 28 Sd 1.94
No wad, no fill (30 grs.)



Date: 09 Jan 94 11:46:57
From: Ed Harris
Subj: Old Army Question

Loads for Ruger's Old Army:

Ruger's instruction book recommends a light target load of 20
grs. of FFFg, and filling the remainder of the chamber with
corn meal or Cream of Wheat to take up the airspace.

Round balls should be .457" diameter, to ensure an adequate
cylindrical bearing surface is formed on the ball to take the
rifling. Soft, bevel-based .45 ACP lead semi-wadcutters such
as the Saeco #131 or H&G #130BB may be used if .453" diameter
or larger. This is required so they fit the chambers
tightly to prevent their creeping forward from recoil. I
find the .45 ACP wadcutters are more accurate than the
traditional blackpowder conicals.

As the gun comes from the factory, the sights are best suited
for use with round balls. Ruger's recommended load of 20
grs. of FFFg strikes high in the ten-ring of the 25-yard
Timed and Rapid-Fire pistol target. A heavier load of 35
grs. of FFFg hits at 12:00 in the nine ring. Heavier bullets
of 200 grains or more strike at the upper edge of the paper.
The Ruger's front sight really needs to be 0.080'-0.090"
higher to permit greater flexibility in loads, as the heavier
bullets are truly accurate and provide greater energy for
hunting loads.

The Lee 200-gr. .45 cal. R.E.A.L. is more accurate than
traditional round-nosed conicals, cuts clean holes in target
paper and is of tapered design so it is easy to load. It
shoots accurately with the same charges used for round balls
in the Old Army. I lubricate REAL bullets for my Old Army in
a .454" sizer, and either fill the grooves with a soft stick
lubricant or tumble them in Lee Liquid Alox. Both methods
work well.

A charge of 20-25 grs. bulk measure of FFFg or Pyrodex P,
(Lee 1.3cc or 1.6cc measure) with the 200 R.E.A.L.
approximates the ballistics of .45 ACP wadcutter ammunition.
For a heavy hunting load 30-35 grs. bulk measure of FFFg,
Pyrodex RS or P (Lee 1.9cc or 2.2 cc measure), fills the
chambers when a wad is used, produces 2 to 2-1/2" groups at
25 yards and 850-1000 f.p.s., depending upon the powder used.

The 250-gr. Lee R.E.A.L. bullet is highly accurate and
authoritative from the Ruger Old Army with 30-35 grs. bulk
measure (a Lee 1.9cc or 2.2cc measure full) of FFFg black
powder, RS or P-grade Pyrodex. The 2.2cc measure fills the
chambers to capacity without using a wad, produces 880-980
f.p.s., depending upon the powder type and granulation and
averages 2" groups or less at 25 yards.

--- Load Tables Continue next message ---


In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed



--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: None (1:109/120.3006)


================================================== =============================

Date: 09 Jan 94 12:21:36
From: Ed Harris
Subj: Loadfs for the Old Army

Black Powder Loads For the Ruger Old Army
Average of Five, 6-Shot Groups at 25 yards from sandbag rests
CCI Caps, Ox Yoke wads.

BULLET GOEX VEL@10' EXTREME SPREAD (ins.)
FFFg (f.p.s.) Smallest Largest Average
(grs.) Goex Powder lot
-----------------------------------------------------------------
143-gr., .457" Lee Round Ball
fill+wad 20 801, 43 Sd 1.76 1.93 1.84
wad only 25 738, 31 Sd 1.99 2.58 2.24 92MY20B
931, 32 Sd 1.42 2.40 1.88 93JA12B
30 971, 15 Sd 1.79 2.20 2.00
35 1010, 9 Sd 1.50 3.96 2.13
41 1041, 10 Sd 2.46 4.50 3.46 92MY20B
1228, Sd 27 2.22 4.14 3.36 93JA12B
-----------------------------------------------------------------
200-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
wad 20 699, 25 Sd 1.75 1.96 1.81
25 864, 7 Sd 1.06 2.55 2.01
no wad 30 685, 38 Sd 1.85 2.66 2.23 92MY20B
882, 12 Sd 1.78 2.66 2.13 93JA12B
35 852, 12 Sd 1.20 3.0 2.20 92MY20B
1017, 15 Sd 1.59 2.57 1.89 93JA12B
-----------------------------------------------------------------
250-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.

wad 20 672, 12 Sd 1.91 3.0 2.39
25 781, 31 Sd 2.04 2.56 2.22
no wad 30 882, 12 Sd 1.30 2.14 1.60
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Unless otherwise stated, all black powder tests above were based
upon firing Goex FFFg of lot 93JA12B. Two charge levels were
repeated with the 143-gr. round ball and again with the 200-gr.
Lee R.E.A.L. using a different powder lot 92MY20B. This was done
to illustrate that black powder of the same brand and granulation
is subject to variations. The results in this brief test
represent the maximum lot-to-lot variation an individual user is
expected to encounter.

Hodgdon Pyrodex RS Loads For the Ruger Old Army
Average of Five, 6-Shot Groups at 25 yards from sandbag rests
CCI caps, Ox Yoke wads.

BULLET Pyro.RS BULK VEL@10' EXTREME SPREAD (ins.)
Wt/Type ACTUAL BP (f.p.s.) Smallest Largest Average
(grs.) (grs.))
-----------------------------------------------------------------
143-gr. .457" Lee Round Ball
wad, fill 16 22 725, 30Sd 1.93 2.71 2.40
wad, no fill 20 30 883, 30Sd 1.21 2.52 1.80
25 35 947, 26Sd 2.17 2.68 2.42
no wad/fill 30 41 1201, 27Sd 2.29 3.18 2.53

200-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
wad, no fill 20 30 836, 29Sd 1.28 2.42 1.91
25 35 914, 41Sd 1.08 2.43 1.82
-----------------------------------------------------------------
220-gr. Lee Round-Nosed Conical
wad, fill 16 22 714, 16Sd 1.73 3.17 2.34
wad, no fill 20 30 815, 25Sd 2.23 3.16 2.73
wad, no fill 25 35 889, 27Sd 2.01 2.99 2.57
-----------------------------------------------------------------
250-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
no wad/fill 25 35 913, 32Sd 1.81 2.17 2.03

Hodgdon Pyrodex P Loads For the Ruger Old Army
Average of Five, 6-Shot Groups at 25 yards from sandbag rests
CCI caps, Ox Yoke wads

BULLET Pyro. P BULK VEL@10' EXTREME SPREAD (ins.)
Wt/Type ACTUAL BP (f.p.s.) Smallest Largest Average
(grs.) (grs.))
-----------------------------------------------------------------
143-gr. .457" Lee Round Ball
wad, fill 16.5 20 851, 11Sd 1.62 2.10 1.91
18 22 884, 14Sd 1.66 2.41 1.94
wad, no fill 21 25 942, 19Sd 1.59 2.3 2.00
24 30 985, 22Sd 1.77 4.85 2.86
29 35 1117, 51Sd 2.15 3.91 2.87
33 41 1189, 31Sd 2.15 4.65 3.32
-----------------------------------------------------------------
200-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
wad, fill 16.5 20 816, 13Sd 1.73 2.74 2.12
18 22 860, 14Sd 1.66 2.41 1.91
wad, no fill 21 25 940, 31Sd 1.45 2.51 2.02
24 30 1002, 12Sd 2.03 3.17 2.55
no wad/ 29 35 1123, 22Sd 1.98 2.85 2.44
-----------------------------------------------------------------
250-gr. Lee R.E.A.L.
wad, fill 16.5 20 759, 9Sd 1.41 2.0 1.76
18 22 781, 16Sd 2.02 2.69 2.40
wad, no fill 21 25 876, 12Sd 1.68 2.08 1.83
24 30 982, 28Sd 1.61 2.69 1.94
-----------------------------------------------------------------



In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed



--- msged 2.05
* Origin: Home of Ed's Red (1:109/120.3006)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My 2¢
I have an Old Army. I tried the Lee 456-220-1r (designed for the Old Army) and had no luck with any load/charge, I recall having issues seating them squarely, so I suspect that was the lion's share of my problem.
So I shoot the 457 RB exclusively with it, I've tried many loads of 3F ...from 20gr up to 35gr and found the 20gr was most accurate in my gun.

[Handshaker]

Thanks All!

[Froogal]

The original cylinder was never rated for Trail Boss.

Correct! Trail Boss is a modern, smokeless powder. It is NOT a black powder substitute.

[rodwha]

“A round ball at higher velocity is a
better killer and more accurate than the conicals. I see no good
reason to use the conical bullets at all in cap & ball revolvers.”

I strongly disagree with this statement, though I must point out that at the time of this article there weren’t many options. Now there are several, as well as custom options, which is what I did. We all know (or should) that a wide meplat creates a much larger than caliber permanent wound track. A ball creates a little wider channel than a RN, and anything resembling pointy like the traditional conicals used during the Civil War are dismal, which is clearly why a ball was favored as far as killing went as we read with Elmer Keith’s Civil War veterans.

I also found that my ROA did equally well with a variety of projectiles including a ball. And I also found that the more accurate powder charge didn’t change (one with a bit of power intended for hunting - started at the 25 grn mark and worked up in 5 grn increments). With 3F Olde Eynsford black powder this accurate charge of 35 grns weighs about 38.

As to 3F and 2F this is granulation size. In general 3F is considered to be meant for handguns and rifles up to about .50 cal and 2F is meant for rifles from .45 cal and up. 4F is said to be only for priming flintlocks, but this is a misconception as 4F was used in the Hazard’s paper cartridges used during the Civil War, and has also been found in disassembled metallic cartridges from the late 1800’s. It’s also often used in pocket guns where the charge is rather small. The 1st Edition Lyman’s Handbook also has load data for .44 cal revolvers using 4F. 1F is often used in larger bores. The larger the number the finer the powder and the quicker it ignites. It also creates a bit more pressure.

In regards to 4F I see no reason to use it when there are a few energetic options available in 3F which I feel would still outpace 4F standard grade stuff such as the standard Goex powder. And I would never recommend defying manufacturer’s warnings even if I did so myself.

If one is merely shooting paper the powder and projectile isn’t of much concern. A ball with any powder kills it quite dead all the same. For hunting I require an energetic powder (Olde Eynsford, Swiss, or Triple 7) and a bullet with a wide meplat.

My Accurate Molds design weighs 195 grns and has a .375” (83%) meplat. It is merely .460” long thinking if a ball was often said to be more accurate maybe the length was part of the story. As I now see this isn’t so, and finding my accurate powder charge didn’t change, I intend to modify my design to fill in the excess chamber space with lead by elongating it a bit.

[koger]

I shoot the lee conical with 30 grains of 3fffg black powder and felt wad, wonder wad, under the bullet to seal it off and not have any chain fires. I also lube the end of each cylinder after loading, to keep fouling soft and and further guard against cylinder chain fires. My Ruger seems to like this load and shoots extremely small groups at 25 yds, from a sand bag. Their will be all kinds of folks who will tell you that this is not big enough to hunt with, but the 2 deer I shot did not know that, apparently, as they promptly gave up the ghost!1

[mazo kid]

You asked about fffg powder. That designates the size of the powder granules. This normally ranges from Cannon (Coarsest) then fg up through ffffg which is the finest. Swiss powder differs slightly in their sizing of powder granules.

[charlie b]

Since the OP asked about Alliant BlackMZ.....

All of the substitute powders are formulated to give safe pressures with the same VOLUME of load for real black powder. Black MZ seems to be a 2F granulation. Also it likes to be compressed, ie, bear down on the loading lever (don't break it ). So, I would start with the recommended BP loads by volume.

When I use a substitute I use a measure for the amount I want and then weigh it. Note what the weight is and use that for reloading.

The load will depend on you. You can load for plinking, most accurate or max power. IIRC the pistol is safe with a full load, ie, just enough space left to load the bullet/ball.