MP .458 SOCOM Please

[hicard]

Looks good but, I would jump all over a Gould 330 GR copy with GC design.

[lar45]

Hi guys, The bullet hasn't arrived yet, should be here soon I would suspect.
I've been trying to find a print of the chamber or reamer, but can't seem to find one anywhere.
Does anyone know what the lead and throat area looks like?

I did find one reference to the ball seat being .185" long and tapers from .4595 to .4520"
Another question, are you able to shoot longer cast bullets with the base and gas check below the neck?
Also what is the real max loaded length? I've found 2.015", 2.260", and 2.310"

Thanks
Glenn.

[lar45]

Hi guys, the bullets showed up yesterday, and this is where I'm at.
It looks like it will be around 425 grains at 1.20" long without the plastic tip.
The meplat on the Barnes bullet without the plastic tip is .260"
The center of the radiused meplat is .261"
I put 2 crimp grooves on for different seating depths, this can always be moved around if needed.



Let me know what you like or not.
Glenn.

[jmort]

Looks real good to me. If there can be some certainty about the exact perfect OAL then a single crimp groove would be best, but absent that certainty, two crimp grooves makes sense.
I really like this.
Thank you for the quick attention.
Look forward to more sophisticated comments from others.

[thraxx]

I was thinking this was going to be a 300-350gr bullet...

[lar45]

I can chop some out of the middle to get the weight down.

[jmort]

Here is some load data to consider:


.458 Socom (Barnes Data 2012)

Warning! Notes: COAL: 2.240"; case: Starline; case trim length: 1.565"; primer: Rem 2 1/2; barrel length: 16"; twist rate: 1:9"
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
300 Barnes TAC-TX Hodgdon Lil'Gun 24.5 1601
Remarks: starting load; most accurate load
300 Barnes TAC-TX Hodgdon Lil'Gun 26.5 1704
Remarks: maximum load; most accurate load
300 Barnes TAC-TX Winchester W-296 27.0 1549
Remarks: starting load
300 Barnes TAC-TX Winchester W-296 29.0 1719
Remarks: maximum load
300 Barnes TAC-TX IMR IMR-4227 28.0 1582
Remarks: starting load
300 Barnes TAC-TX IMR IMR-4227 30.0 1669
Remarks: maximum load
300 Barnes TAC-TX Accurate AAC-1680 33.0 1662
Remarks: starting load
300 Barnes TAC-TX Accurate AAC-1680 35.0 1747
Remarks: maximum load
300 Barnes TAC-TX Alliant RL-7 35.0 1602
Remarks: starting load
300 Barnes TAC-TX Alliant RL-7 37.0 1691
Remarks: maximum load
330 Barnes Banded Solid Hodgdon Lil'Gun 26.5 1599
Remarks: starting load
330 Barnes Banded Solid Hodgdon Lil'Gun 28.5 1699
Remarks: maximum load
330 Barnes Banded Solid Winchester W-296 29.5 1552
Remarks: starting load
330 Barnes Banded Solid Winchester W-296 31.5 1708
Remarks: maximum load
330 Barnes Banded Solid IMR IMR-4227 32.0 1598
Remarks: starting load; most accurate load
330 Barnes Banded Solid IMR IMR-4227 34.0 1739
Remarks: maximum load; most accurate load
330 Barnes Banded Solid Accurate AAC-1680 38.0 1678
Remarks: starting load
330 Barnes Banded Solid Accurate AAC-1680 40.0 1811
Remarks: maximum load
330 Barnes Banded Solid Alliant RL-7 41.0 1685
Remarks: starting load
330 Barnes Banded Solid Alliant RL-7 43.0 1783
Remarks: maximum load


.458 SOCOM

Warning! Notes: Tromix .458 SOCOM Monster, 16.25-inch barrel. Accuracy is the average of four five-shot groups fired from a sandbag benchrest at 100 yards. Velocity is the average of 10 rounds measured 15 feet from the gun's muzzle. All handloads used Starline cases and CCI 350 primers. All load data should be used with caution. Always start with reduced loads first and make sure they are safe in each of your guns before proceeding to the high test loads listed. (Source: Teppo Jutsu)
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
300 Barnes X-Bullet Hodgdon Lil'Gun 33.0 1901
Remarks: OAL (inches): 2.26; 100-yard accuracy (inches): 1.75
300 Remington JHP Hodgdon H-110 35.0 1631
Remarks: OAL (inches): 2.02; 100-yard accuracy (inches): 2.00
300 Remington JHP Hodgdon Lil'Gun 35.0 2012
Remarks: OAL (inches): 2.02; 100-yard accuracy (inches): 1.60
405 Remington JFP Hodgdon Lil'Gun 29.0 1607
Remarks: OAL (inches): 2.08; 100-yard accuracy (inches): 1.30
500 Hornady RN IMR IMR-4198 26.5 1079
Remarks: OAL (inches): 2.24; 100-yard accuracy (inches): 2.50

[jmort]

I am good at 425 grains
330 - 350 seems useful as well
Thoughts ???

[jmort]

.458 SOCOM, 1.575 case length
Hornady 325 gr FTX, 2.140 loaded length
MAX loads, velocities estimated for 16" barrel
Type mc (gr) fill (%) vel (fps) Pmax (psi) Z (%) Pmuz (psi)
Norma 200 40.88 107.00 1828 35000 89.22 4777
Bofors RP1/NP ~approximation 40.88 107.00 1828 35000 89.22 4777
Hodgdon Lil'Gun 32.61 85.00 1815 35000 99.96 4132
ADI AR 2207 37.26 108.00 1811 35000 93.30 4553
Winchester 296 33.15 84.00 1808 35000 94.75 4468
Nitrochemie A/S 0300 40.60 107.00 1792 35000 85.31 4708
Vihtavuori N120 37.01 110.00 1780 34661 94.68 4276
Rottweil R910 29.71 87.00 1780 35000 100.00 3705
Hodgdon H110 33.28 84.00 1772 35000 96.98 4165
Alliant Reloder- 7 37.78 106.00 1766 35000 88.51 4313
Ramshot X-Terminator 42.26 107.00 1754 35000 79.97 4466
Nitrochemie A/S 0200 33.07 90.00 1752 35000 94.06 4046
SF-033 fl 41.42 110.00 1747 30629 87.69 4715
SNPE Vectan SP 10 42.98 109.00 1745 35000 77.87 4443
Hodgdon H4227 33.35 99.00 1744 35000 92.65 4027
PB Clermont PCL 508 43.03 109.00 1744 35000 77.85 4436
Vihtavuori N110 29.35 94.00 1744 35000 99.83 3665
IMR 4198 36.06 109.00 1738 35000 87.88 4131
Kazan Sunar 308W 39.65 110.00 1737 34728 85.78 4182
ADI AR 2219 41.14 108.00 1730 35000 78.84 4349
Hodgdon H335 43.75 109.00 1724 35000 76.67 4384
Accurate 1680 36.69 93.00 1721 35000 83.63 4050
IMR 4227 32.70 97.00 1721 35000 91.45 3884
PB Clermont PCL 512 28.51 81.00 1719 35000 99.80 3536
Accurate 5744 30.66 89.00 1716 35000 89.10 3960
Accurate 2200 39.13 105.00 1707 35000 77.97 4047
ADI AR 2210 41.21 108.00 1705 35000 75.81 4096
Alliant Reloder-10x 38.24 110.00 1703 29480 83.88 4352
ADI BM2 41.38 105.00 1701 35000 76.02 4050
Somchem S265 31.49 93.00 1687 35000 95.36 3617
Hodgdon H4198 35.93 104.00 1685 35000 81.14 3795
ADI AR 2205 31.21 89.00 1675 35000 96.15 3550
Accurate 2230 43.44 110.00 1655 31105 72.61 4059
Ramshot TAC 43.40 110.00 1652 31769 70.47 4074
Vihtavuori N130 37.89 110.00 1646 29188 83.05 3948
Alliant Reloder-12 41.33 110.00 1639 30545 76.47 3999
Hodgdon H322 39.35 110.00 1639 29939 75.65 4041
SNPE Vectan Sp 7 43.49 110.00 1638 28606 71.61 4134
Accurate 2015 39.21 110.00 1632 26711 80.05 4101
Somchem S321 43.62 110.00 1621 29445 69.55 4043
Hodgdon Benchmark 39.92 110.00 1621 30451 73.11 3790
Vihtavuori N530 40.75 110.00 1615 29748 69.77 3910
Winchester 748 43.62 110.00 1609 30341 67.82 3985
Accurate 2460 43.49 110.00 1607 27495 70.51 3999
PB Clermont PCL 507 42.30 110.00 1595 28802 68.28 3875

[lar45]

Here is a shorter version that should come out around 325 grains.
The crimp groove is set for a 45-70 .400" nose length.
I'm not sure if you guys want the hp or not, but there it is.
We can always take it out later if needed.

[tradbear55]

Here is a shorter version that should come out around 325 grains.
The crimp groove is set for a 45-70 .400" nose length.
I'm not sure if you guys want the hp or not, but there it is.
We can always take it out later if needed.

Definitely want one of these. I think this will be an excellent performer in my 45-70.

[jmort]

I do not see how this works.
Case trim length is 1.575
This would have an OAL at less than 2.00" and much less if taper crimped on top band.
The OAL should be around 2.20" to 2.25" with a bullet like this.
I hope I am missing something, but this seems way off for the .458 SOCOM

The original design was closer to something north of 2.00" but not now.

[hicard]

I do not see how this works.
Case trim length is 1.575
This would have an OAL at less than 2.00" and much less if taper crimped on top band.
The OAL should be around 2.20" to 2.25" with a bullet like this.
I hope I am missing something, but this seems way off for the .458 SOCOM

The original design was closer to something north of 2.00" but not now.

I tend to agree with jmort. I would like to see less shank and a longer ogive with maybe a smaller meplat and hp but allowing enough (length) room for a plastic tip if that ever gets into the plans. The weight in post 30 looks good.

[jmort]

^^^ Agreed
Not sure there will ever be a plastic tip
Need HP option but enough meplat to be
Lead Bullets Technology

[tradbear55]

If the meplat is too large it may cause issues with feeding in the ar platform, would it not.

[jmort]

Yes, by definition
That is why we started with the Barnes tipped .458 SOCOM bullet.

[hicard]

I'm just saying that I don't need a handgun size mammoth hp for expansion in a rifle bullet. I don't want it to fragment on impact, just upset a little. A smaller/shallower hp will expand ok. I am also more concerned about proper bullet overall length and smooth feeding in an AR than I am about expansion. Remember, the Barnes bullet we are discussing has no meplat. Barnes suggests an overall length of 2.230 (including the plastic tip).

[pmer]

I think I would take one of your barnes bullets and grind the nose down till it matches the meplat in post 30. Then make a dummie round to make sure feeds from a magazine. I would try it from a full mag and a near empty one.

Just for reference;
The WFN I have pictured on the first page is a Accurate 46-405A. It has .400 nose length, .325 meplat and it will not feed from a factory magazine. But it works great with a little work to the mag.

The socom isn't a standardized cartridge either. Mine isn't cast friendly, it's a great shooter but it has a short throat and a tight neck.

[hicard]

I think I would take one of your barnes bullets and grind the nose down till it matches the meplat in post 30. Then make a dummie round to make sure feeds from a magazine. I would try it from a full mag and a near empty one.

Just for reference;
The WFN I have pictured on the first page is a Accurate 46-405A. It has .400 nose length, .325 meplat and it will not feed from a factory magazine. But it works great with a little work to the mag.

The socom isn't a standardized cartridge either. Mine isn't cast friendly, it's a great shooter but it has a short throat and a tight neck.

pmer If you follow the ogive to just short of the front of your magazine in your photo, the meplat would be a lot smaller and still have room for a hp. I bet you would not have to file your magazines for proper feeding either. The Gould bullet expands well at 1400-1500 fps and has a smaller meplat and hp. I like the nose profile of your Missouri bullets, for example. I've said enough, can't use lead boolits in Kalifornia anyway.

[pmer]

I'm not claiming to be any sort of 458 socom expert but if the goal is to get a type of flat nose to work in a AR, I had some challenges to get them working. It would be nice to have another member chime in with their experience. I've tried meplats from .250 - .325 and all of these boolits would work in a1895 Marlin with a .400 nose length. In the 1911 world I think they call it a 3 point jam, the cartridge ends up stopped at 45°. In the case of the socom there is a dent on the ogive and marks on the shoulder from the two top locking lugs of the barrel extension. The edge of the meplat wasn't really dinged with the wfn's.
My goal was for hunting with the socom using flat points so I never even bought any pointy style socom boolits for it. I did buy a couple boxes of 300 fp jacketed from the builder of the upper that I bought. He was reluctant to sell them saying "I'll probably have feed troubles" these were short oal's with about a .300 meplat. These would feed in a standard mag but only with 2 or 3 rounds loaded in the mag. Any more and the 3 point jam would occur.

I did eventually buy a .250 meplat Accurate 46-305s mold just for my socom. Even with the .250 meplat these would kinda "ker-chunk" there way in the chamber with a standard mag.

Again if some else has had luck with flat points in the socom please chime in. I wish I bought the Tromix but I didn't.

So anyways my notched magazine made all the feed troubles go away and opened up more options for different nose profiles in the AR. That's why I suggested to modify the barnes bullet to match the drawing to make sure it feeds before the buy gets going. I kinda like the longer nose of the first drawing myself.