Opinions on this article. Rossi 92 in .45 loaded to 50,000 psi

[Watcher]

Well first I would like to know if anyone knows what the bursting pressure would be for a Rossi 92 in .45 colt. This gentleman says he is running 50,000 psi loads in his Rossi 92 .45. He also says he is running 65,000 psi loads in his Rossi .454 Casul. Again this seems quite high to me. But I am here to learn. Thanks http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm

[dverna]

I wonder if Rossi has any opinions....or maybe even facts?

[northmn]

I doubt if the rifle would last as long doing idiot things like that.


DEP

[Ramjet-SS]

The article and its author absolutely know what they speak of.

The Puma was offered in 454 and you can look up the operating SAAMI spec for that cartridge.

Now this is jot license for folks to start up loading the different lever guns to high pressure loads.

Think about the diameter of the 45-70 case head and the high level loads in the manuals the lever guns have been getting after it for some time. I am not advocating and honestly shooting top end loads from a small light weight lever gun is not for me anymore. Beats the **** outta ya.

[Watcher]

The article and its author absolutely know what they speak of.

The Puma was offered in 454 and you can look up the operating SAAMI spec for that cartridge.

Now this is jot license for folks to start up loading the different lever guns to high pressure loads.

Think about the diameter of the 45-70 case head and the high level loads in the manuals the lever guns have been getting after it for some time. I am not advocating and honestly shooting top end loads from a small light weight lever gun is not for me anymore. Beats the **** outta ya.

OK what is the SAMMI spec for the Rossi 92 in .45 Colt as he was loading it up to 50,000 psi as well? I could not find that info on the .45 either.

[jmort]

The .454 Legacy/Puma 92 was fortified. It was not an off the shelf .45 Colt receiver with a .454 chamber. I would go to 30 to 35k psi, but no further. But you can take it much higher, if you want.

[jmort]

"Back to guns.....the 45 long Colt in a strong 1892 action...made of modern steel will contain the same pressures that the Winchester Big Bore action will contain and even a bit more....50,000 cup..easily. (My article on the new Legacy/Puma 454 carbine is posted on www.gunblast.com(My article on the new Legacy/Puma 454 carbine is posted on www.gunblast.com But I still feel that it is not designed in a way that it will take a long sustained use of the full pressure of the 454 loads at 60,000+ lbs. So don’t go there with even a modern Rossi, Browning, or Winchester 92. I have tested the new Legacy(Rossi) Puma in 454....there are changes in the little carbine, good changes...the most noticeable is what they have done to try and keep the loading tube from shearing the muzzle holding screw...and the change in how you load....much like lever 22RFs. I still think they are going to have problems...I hope not...it is a small packable rifle, that gives the bottom end power of a heavy loaded 45-70.

If Legacy truly has a 92 action that will take 454 full pressures over a sustained high number of rounds fired...like 10,000 of them...then they have made some changes to the steel and the design we don’t know about...in my tests now over one thousand heavy pressure commercial and in handloads, the 454 Legacy has performed wonderfully. I actually thought with full loads it wouldn’t sustain even that. But I’m now glad I can say I was wrong.!

Something has changed..I know a very late model, carbon steel built Browning/Winchester 92, will not take more than a few hundred rounds of 454 pressures before it gets a beginning case of bolt set back. My 1990s 45 Colt Rossi model ‘92 with 24 inch octagon barrel also didn’t do well at the 60,000 lb. Level of pressure. One Winchester was so bad, the mortises on the bolt itself had to be peened back in place, and the steel bolt blocks had to be given Mig Weld lines up the front of them, and ground and refitted to regain action tightness. In our case, I was reloading 45 long Colt cases to 60,000+cup. When a modern Rossi...a Christmas present from my children and wife three years ago, is loaded to a top end of 50,000 cup....no damage has occurred after thousands of rounds.

Because of the changes in today’s steels (since the discoveries during the 2nd WW, I would worry about any converted old 1892 Winchesters to 45 long Colt) modern Browning, Winchester, Legacy and Nave Arms, are made today from excellent steels and will take magnum pressures...Remember the first 357 magnum S&W rounds were rated at 47,000 psi. We tested original 1935 first run ammo in 357 revolvers last year and they gave well over 1500 fps from an S&W N-Frame 8 inch+ revolver...so the pressures had to be up there. The modern 92s no matter the caliber will easily take magnum handgun pressures. Certainly they take hot 44 magnum pressures without problems, so they will take the same in reloads with the 45 long Colt. I’m sure most know by now that friends John Taffin, Brian Pierce, Jim Wilson, Jim Taylor, myself and others have killed the big lie that 45 Colt brass is weaker than 44 magnum brass...or any other type. So 45 brass at these high pressures is not a problem.

So where are we.....? Modern 92s, factory chambered in 45 long Colt can take 50,000+ cup loads. But I wouldn’t trust custom rebuilt old 92 actions in 45 long Colt to be able to sustain those top pressures, unless I knew the date of the action, and it was at the very least well after the 1930s. Also I have found that some of the heavy loads I use daily in my Ruger S/As in long Colt, are too warm for the early 1980s Winchester 94 actions in 45 long Colt. I have blown extractors, loosened ejectors, on them. Now that is my warm loads in the Rugers. Most folks don’t load that high...and I can understand that.

So I would put the very upper limit on pressure in these fine model 94 Winchester and Marlin leveractions at 40,000+ cup"

http://leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[.45colt]

I read that article around 18 years ago, had the Keith 260 going 1700 fps in the .45 colt. experimented a lot for a while ,then one day a light went on in My thick skull and I bought a 45-70. right tool for the job. any job.

[Watcher]

"Back to guns.....the 45 long Colt in a strong 1892 action...made of modern steel will contain the same pressures that the Winchester Big Bore action will contain and even a bit more....50,000 cup..easily. (My article on the new Legacy/Puma 454 carbine is posted on www.gunblast.com(My article on the new Legacy/Puma 454 carbine is posted on www.gunblast.com But I still feel that it is not designed in a way that it will take a long sustained use of the full pressure of the 454 loads at 60,000+ lbs. So don’t go there with even a modern Rossi, Browning, or Winchester 92. I have tested the new Legacy(Rossi) Puma in 454....there are changes in the little carbine, good changes...the most noticeable is what they have done to try and keep the loading tube from shearing the muzzle holding screw...and the change in how you load....much like lever 22RFs. I still think they are going to have problems...I hope not...it is a small packable rifle, that gives the bottom end power of a heavy loaded 45-70.

If Legacy truly has a 92 action that will take 454 full pressures over a sustained high number of rounds fired...like 10,000 of them...then they have made some changes to the steel and the design we don’t know about...in my tests now over one thousand heavy pressure commercial and in handloads, the 454 Legacy has performed wonderfully. I actually thought with full loads it wouldn’t sustain even that. But I’m now glad I can say I was wrong.!

Something has changed..I know a very late model, carbon steel built Browning/Winchester 92, will not take more than a few hundred rounds of 454 pressures before it gets a beginning case of bolt set back. My 1990s 45 Colt Rossi model ‘92 with 24 inch octagon barrel also didn’t do well at the 60,000 lb. Level of pressure. One Winchester was so bad, the mortises on the bolt itself had to be peened back in place, and the steel bolt blocks had to be given Mig Weld lines up the front of them, and ground and refitted to regain action tightness. In our case, I was reloading 45 long Colt cases to 60,000+cup. When a modern Rossi...a Christmas present from my children and wife three years ago, is loaded to a top end of 50,000 cup....no damage has occurred after thousands of rounds.

Because of the changes in today’s steels (since the discoveries during the 2nd WW, I would worry about any converted old 1892 Winchesters to 45 long Colt) modern Browning, Winchester, Legacy and Nave Arms, are made today from excellent steels and will take magnum pressures...Remember the first 357 magnum S&W rounds were rated at 47,000 psi. We tested original 1935 first run ammo in 357 revolvers last year and they gave well over 1500 fps from an S&W N-Frame 8 inch+ revolver...so the pressures had to be up there. The modern 92s no matter the caliber will easily take magnum handgun pressures. Certainly they take hot 44 magnum pressures without problems, so they will take the same in reloads with the 45 long Colt. I’m sure most know by now that friends John Taffin, Brian Pierce, Jim Wilson, Jim Taylor, myself and others have killed the big lie that 45 Colt brass is weaker than 44 magnum brass...or any other type. So 45 brass at these high pressures is not a problem.

So where are we.....? Modern 92s, factory chambered in 45 long Colt can take 50,000+ cup loads. But I wouldn’t trust custom rebuilt old 92 actions in 45 long Colt to be able to sustain those top pressures, unless I knew the date of the action, and it was at the very least well after the 1930s. Also I have found that some of the heavy loads I use daily in my Ruger S/As in long Colt, are too warm for the early 1980s Winchester 94 actions in 45 long Colt. I have blown extractors, loosened ejectors, on them. Now that is my warm loads in the Rugers. Most folks don’t load that high...and I can understand that.

So I would put the very upper limit on pressure in these fine model 94 Winchester and Marlin leveractions at 40,000+ cup"

http://leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

Now please understand, no disrespect intended in anyway whatsoever. But can I take your statement to the bank? Again respectfully what are your credentials. Just so you understand I am asking as a farmer who reloads and needs both my hands and all my fingers. I am new here. But I would like to push 250 gr to 300gr lead at least 1400-1500fps. Just so you understand were I am coming from here. Thanks I appreciate your time.

[Watcher]

I read that article around 18 years ago, had the Keith 260 going 1700 fps in the .45 colt. experimented a lot for a while ,then one day a light went on in My thick skull and I bought a 45-70. right tool for the job. any job.

Smart man but yah see my Dear Wife bought me the Rossi 92 as a gift. And now I am hooked on the little sweetheart. Both of them.

[bigboredad]

I doubt if the rifle would last as long doing idiot things like that.


DEP

Perhaps you should look up pack and what he has done before calling him a idiot

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

[dverna]

I read that article around 18 years ago, had the Keith 260 going 1700 fps in the .45 colt. experimented a lot for a while ,then one day a light went on in My thick skull and I bought a 45-70. right tool for the job. any job.

If the article is that old, perhaps Paco could be contacted and asked his current opinions? I have no interest in the gun or caliber/. If I did, and wanted to push the limits, I would contact Rossi, and also reach out to Paco.

To the OP, please keep your loads to published limits until you know better. Having one gun survive a few hundred shots is not the same as a steady diet of over pressure loads.

I am not smart enough to address the question, but smart enough to know who to ask.

[Watcher]

If the article is that old, perhaps Paco could be contacted and asked his current opinions? I have no interest in the gun or caliber/. If I did, and wanted to push the limits, I would contact Rossi, and also reach out to Paco.

To the OP, please keep your loads to published limits until you know better. Having one gun survive a few hundred shots is not the same as a steady diet of over pressure loads.

I am not smart enough to address the question, but smart enough to know who to ask.

Good advice Don. I am in no rush to lose a few digits or worse. But am willing to listen to my betters on the subject at hand. I need my booger hooks.

[indian joe]

Perhaps you should look up pack and what he has done before calling him a idiot

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

Most experimenters have done idiot things as part of the learning process - I reckon 65,000psi in a Rossi fits that bill - he only becomes an idiot when he fails to learn the lesson (whatever that is)

[SvenLindquist]

Reminds me of the importer who redid 96 Swedes to 264 Win Mag. Gump had it right.

[jmort]

Now please understand, no disrespect intended in anyway whatsoever. But can I take your statement to the bank? Again respectfully what are your credentials. Just so you understand I am asking as a farmer who reloads and needs both my hands and all my fingers. I am new here. But I would like to push 250 gr to 300gr lead at least 1400-1500fps. Just so you understand were I am coming from here. Thanks I appreciate your time.

I expressed no opinion in that post. It was an excerpt from Paco's article.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Personally - I try to stay at or under 45k PSI in a good SOLID bolt action - No "learning my lesson" by a KABOOM causing facial modification or finger losses etc. is in any way desired here; YMMV.

I use slightly slower powders and a long barrel, and get more velocity, often enough, than higher pressures in the same cartridge will give us, seems safer than if I used hotter powders to get that same velocity. Varmints will be DRT just fine when I do my job of shot placement and holding properly for the wind and range; IMO extra speed gained at the cost of potentially injuring myself just IS NOT WORTH IT, to me at least. (If more velocity's all that important for some reason, maybe it's time to use a different cartridge, or look into particle beams or lasers?)

To put it another way - I just flat don't trust that evil evil evil cruel Murphy character to NOT "gotcha" me, he's a mean one and just plain SNEAKY. He's been known to arrange things like stress fractures or bad heat treating in otherwise perfectly good actions, etc.; Who's to say that he didn't do that to my favorite playthings? I figure being reasonably conservative in my handloads, is part of properly respecting my playthings and my own life and well-being. And of responding properly to that Murphy character.

Not just with firearms - Same reason is why I don't drive at 100+ MPH on the freeway, don't tailgate, don't lock brakes up to stop, don't slam the vehicle about, and generally am gentle and respectful to my vehicles, they last longer and don't fail me as often as one "rode hard and put away wet" would.

IMO using Finesse beats Brute Force and Ignorance; And a smidge of paranoia seems a wise precaution, knowing Murphy is on the loose; Do as you see fit, of course.

[SvenLindquist]

What he said

[Shawlerbrook]

I guess my only question would be....why do it. We all stress to new reloader to buy a good manual first and then follow the directions. If one wants a magnum gun, then buy or build a magnum gun. Sooner or later the ‘gator will bite you.

[Texas by God]

The Rossi will handle "Ruger only" loads with aplomb. Beyond that you defeat the purpose of the little carbine and the steel buttplate will defeat your shoulder.