Sizing with Lee push through - leaving tails

[spqr]

New to this forum. Been casting for couple years now, and I tend to do larger batches, usually drop between 1000 and 2000 in sitting using Lee six cavity and Accurate five cavity molds. I push them through a Lee sizer, usually the lower side of whatever caliber. If it’s 45 ACP are usually do .451 and if it’s 44s I do .429. Then they get powder coated. And then back through the sizing die at the next size up. .452 for ACP’s and .430 for 44s. The second run through the sizing die is effortless. Probably don’t even need to do that step they tend to fall right through pretty easily. My problem is the first stage. I used to be able to trim these very nicely but the last couple batches I’m getting “tails” off the back of the boolits. Seems like the sizing dies are smearing the lead rather than trimming it. I’ve tried running copper wool and gun cleaner brushes through but nothing seems to help. I know Lee recommends using Alox before sizing but that would interfere with the powder coating. Pushed many batches through dry without this problem but lately I can’t get any size to go through. Using picked-up range lead as I always have, smelted down and later cast. A little softer than Lyman2. Never had a problem until lately. Any suggestions appreciated

[Wheelguns 1961]

I never size before powder coating. Always after. They glide right through. I would try it if I were you.

[dimaprok]

what he said

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[Idz]

I too size after coating. If you continue to have problems make a nose punch and run them through tail first.

[Idz]

I also have polished all my Lee sizing dies because they tend to have a rough edge transition at the entry cone to sizing cylinder section.

[RogerDat]

Lee case lube is a water based lube that washes off with hot water and doesn't interfere with PC after. A thin smear on about ever 3rd one is plenty to keep thing moving smoothly. I go through and treat 15 or 20 and set them to the side to run through as I do the rest of a bin, just grabbing one of the lubed ones every few I size.

Post sizing I use a tiny amount of soap like a drop or two in hot water to wash bullets. Generally in a bread loaf pan with a couple or three layers of bullets in the bottom. I then rinse in boiling hot water and strain. The hot water rinses well but the hot bullets dry really fast. I also hit them with a blow dryer. Will generally set them aside until next day or if done in morning maybe later like early evening before I PC them. Abundance of caution, I want to make sure they are completely dry in all nooks and crannies.

No problems so far, I shake and bake to PC. Every bullet tested so far I can pound down to a lump or flat bar without PC separation.

I also size post PC to final size. Maybe not 100% of the time but generally unless I'm just knocking out a few quickly for some purpose, or if I want to gain a tiny amount of size as an experiment.

I also do base first through die to seat gas checks. Works so much better than nose first with check on the bottom. Many of my profiles have a fairly flat or at least broad nose, but I'll even take a tiny flat spot on a pointed nose to get the better gas check process.

Making a nose ram is outside my scope unless I really felt I had a compelling need. Not really set up for that sort of work. Doing it by hand would be obnoxious.

[BNE]

I don’t honk you have a problem with your sizer.

I’ve had the same issue, and I found that I was not closing the die tight enough when casting. That creates a slightly egg shaped Bullet. You can measure them at the week and then the other side and confirm.

I also highly recommend powder coating before you size. If you still need a lubricant, rubbing alcohol works and it evporates off cleanly.

[Dragonheart]

I only size after powder coating and to make the operation easier I mist the PC bullets with a 1 to 12 mix of lanolin and 99% alcohol. The alcohol evaporates almost immediately leaving the "wool wax", which lets the bullets glide through. The alcohol can be found in auto parts used to remove water from fuel.

As far as your sizing die you probably have lead deposits that have burnished to the metal. The same thing happens to gun barrels, so those with little experience look down their barrel and see that it all looks shiny so it must be okay, when actually there are lead deposits highly polished over the steel. I would suggest cleaning the die with a 50/50 mix of white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide. The mix will aid in dissolving the the lead. Use a copper bore brush. To make the brush more effective wrap a thread from copper Chore Boy Pot Scrubber around the brush. Don't assume all of the copper colored scrubbers are actually copper check it with a magnet.

If that doesn't restore the die then it may damaged, polishing may be an option, but it will create a larger die. I would just buy another.

[Hick]

I had the same tails problem with a mold that was dropping about .359 when I wanted 0.356. I went to sizing in two steps (0.358 then 0.356) and the tails went away. Like you, I was not lubing because I wanted the lead totally clean before PC. I think what it boils down to is that you either have to lube them somehow (then clean them if necessary) or size in smaller steps.

[Conditor22]

Lee case lube is a water based lube that washes off with hot water and doesn't interfere with PC after. A thin smear on about ever 3rd one is plenty to keep thing moving smoothly. I go through and treat 15 or 20 and set them to the side to run through as I do the rest of a bin, just grabbing one of the lubed ones every few I size.

Post sizing I use a tiny amount of soap like a drop or two in hot water to wash bullets. Generally in a bread loaf pan with a couple or three layers of bullets in the bottom. I then rinse in boiling hot water and strain. The hot water rinses well but the hot bullets dry really fast. I also hit them with a blow dryer. Will generally set them aside until next day or if done in morning maybe later like early evening before I PC them. Abundance of caution, I want to make sure they are completely dry in all nooks and crannies.

No problems so far, I shake and bake to PC. Every bullet tested so far I can pound down to a lump or flat bar without PC separation.

I also size post PC to final size. Maybe not 100% of the time but generally unless I'm just knocking out a few quickly for some purpose, or if I want to gain a tiny amount of size as an experiment.

I also do base first through die to seat gas checks. Works so much better than nose first with check on the bottom. Many of my profiles have a fairly flat or at least broad nose, but I'll even take a tiny flat spot on a pointed nose to get the better gas check process.

Making a nose ram is outside my scope unless I really felt I had a compelling need. Not really set up for that sort of work. Doing it by hand would be obnoxious.

You don't have to make a nose die, just modify the one you have.
Clean/degrease it well, lightl lube the nost of the boolits, cover the end of the nose punch with hot glue and stick the boolit nose in the hot glue. when the glue has cured shave off any exess glue..

[Stephen Cohen]

I had a similar problem after opening a 375 die to 377 for my 375 Whelen, I cured the problem by opening the mouth of the die and made the sizing more gradual and finishing with 1000 wet and dry on a split dowel. Regards Stephen

[Bird]

New to this forum. Been casting for couple years now, and I tend to do larger batches, usually drop between 1000 and 2000 in sitting using Lee six cavity and Accurate five cavity molds. I push them through a Lee sizer, usually the lower side of whatever caliber. If it’s 45 ACP are usually do .451 and if it’s 44s I do .429. Then they get powder coated. And then back through the sizing die at the next size up. .452 for ACP’s and .430 for 44s. The second run through the sizing die is effortless. Probably don’t even need to do that step they tend to fall right through pretty easily. My problem is the first stage. I used to be able to trim these very nicely but the last couple batches I’m getting “tails” off the back of the boolits. Seems like the sizing dies are smearing the lead rather than trimming it. I’ve tried running copper wool and gun cleaner brushes through but nothing seems to help. I know Lee recommends using Alox before sizing but that would interfere with the powder coating. Pushed many batches through dry without this problem but lately I can’t get any size to go through. Using picked-up range lead as I always have, smelted down and later cast. A little softer than Lyman2. Never had a problem until lately. Any suggestions appreciated

I don't know what you mean by trimming. The sizing dies do not trim anything, they size by displacing the lead alloy. The only way to get tails on your bullets is to size them excessively, i.e. the sizing die is too small, or the bullets too large.
It would seem that your die is clean, so you maybe casting too large of a bullet. Have you changed your alloy? Is your mold closing properly? Tails can become apparent when you are sizing down a bullet 3 tho or more. Stop using the first stage sizing.

[Dragonheart]

The real culprit here is short of having a custom made mold is we don't have molds that are sized for powder coating. I own no less than 15, 9mm handguns of various manufacture and not a one of them slug over .3555", so to start out with a bullet that was obviously designed for a 9mm where the mold is dropping .359" bullets to be PC is the problem. When you move that much metal is has to go somewhere.

[Bama]

Spar, I have seen this occur (tails) under two conditions. First was when the edges on the ram had become rounded and I was using a real soft alloy. In effect the bullet was larger and I was sizing or swaging the bullet down substantially. Base with alloy being used could not stand force being applied without deformation and actually tried to flow around the ram. Since the edges of ram were worn it allowed alloy to flow leaving a skirt on. Base of bullet which destroyed accuracy. For occasional occurrence slightly harder alloy seemed to resolve for a little while. For more frequent occurrences a tighter ram and better lube is only solution I have found that works. Hope someone has a simpler solution that I haven’t tried yet.

[Bama]

Spar, I have seen this occur (tails) under two conditions. First was when the edges on the ram had become rounded and I was using a real soft alloy. In effect the bullet was larger and I was sizing or swaging the bullet down substantially. Base with alloy being used could not stand force being applied without deformation and actually tried to flow around the ram. Since the edges of ram were worn it allowed alloy to flow leaving a skirt on. Base of bullet which destroyed accuracy. For occasional occurrence slightly harder alloy seemed to resolve for a little while. For more frequent occurrences a tighter ram and better lube is only solution I have found that works. Hope someone has a simpler solution that I haven’t tried yet.

[country gent]

Several things can cause these tails to form. Over sizing of the bullet may push lead down. A worn or to small diameter pusher allows for the same. A rough surface in the sizing die may grip and pull metal, unfortunately you cant really polish it out more with out opening size up also. Measure pusher rod at top and die very carefully and see how much clearance there is. More than a few thousandths may be a problem also a chamfer or worn edge will allow this tail. If the bullet has grease grooves look at the grooves and see if the "tail" is forming on them also.
A sizing die isn't meant to scrape or remove metal but to squeeze the bullet down to size a swaging type operation. Clean the die good with a lead removing solvent and visually inspect surface for rough areas build ups and also the leade in angle. Look for wear marks from pusher rubbing. Clean pusher the same and inspect for the same issues. Also check to make sure face is still square. a worn face out of square will push bullet thru at an angle causing issues.

[Bama]

Country gent is dead on Might try some lanolin lube if using cast lube or some yellow 77 if you are going to PC.

[gundownunder]

If you are sizing the bullets before coating, and doing it without lube, then you have probably leaded your sizing die. I would scrub out the die, and polish the inside of the die to a mirror finish with a drill, a piece of wood dowel, and a piece of rag and some chrome polish. Then I would delete the pre-coat sizing, because it will polish the shank of the bullet and cause adhesion problems for your coating. Do the final sizing after all your coating is done, or at least the first coat is done. I use 3 coats of Hi-Tek and only size after all 3 coats are on. My dies are the Lee push through, and I try to push all my bullets through base first rather than nose first as that eliminates tails on any bullets that might want to flow back past the push rod.

[Liberty1776]

I’ve had the same issue, and I found that I was not closing the die tight enough when casting. That creates a slightly egg shaped Bullet. You can measure them at the week and then the other side and confirm.

If I don't lube the Lee 6-cav molds adequately using Full Synthetic motor oil, I've found the molds don't close all the way and eventually lead to a visible flashing on the bullets.

After a thorough lubing, the mold closes properly and tightly, allowing a proper bullet to be cast.

Just for fun I powder coated some of them that had a slight flashing. They went through the sizer horribly. It even scraped off the powder coating on some bullets.

Moral of the story: make sure the mold closes completely before dropping the melted lead into the the cavity.

I've always powder coated then sized. As long as I made the boolits properly (mold fully closed before casting) the bullets have sized easily and accurately.

[Dragonheart]

I don’t honk you have a problem with your sizer.

I’ve had the same issue, and I found that I was not closing the die tight enough when casting. That creates a slightly egg shaped Bullet. You can measure them at the week and then the other side and confirm.

I also highly recommend powder coating before you size. If you still need a lubricant, rubbing alcohol works and it evporates off cleanly.

Bullets coming out of the mold are not round, that is the normal and just the physics of the casting process and mold tolerance. Non-concentric castings has nothing to do with the quality of the mold, the alloy, the pouting process or the experience of the user.

The bands are sized to make them round, but the bullet itself remains non-concentric (lopsided).