Bad Powder again

[milkman]

Back in 2012 I posted some pictures of a jug of surplus 4895 which went bad. I thought I had gotten rid of all the powder and the rounds that I had loaded with it but a friend called the other day to say he was bringing me some brass that was corroding badly. He had some 243 and some 45-70 ammo that was in bad shape. In the past I have loaded both calibers for him, but this was just loose in a bag and I can't determine where it came from. Attachment 236388
I pulled some bullets and found that the powder was of two different types ( sizes of the kernels ) and neither matched the new lot of commercial 4895 that I have on hand. The powder was damp and would clump together and was difficult to remove from the brass. The 45-70 was a light green inside the entire case, the 243 had spots of corrosion, and the bases of all the bullets were corroded.Attachment 236389Attachment 236391
There was no color change and I couldn't detect an odor, so I am not really sure what went on, or even if it was from powder that I had loaded for him. One thing that I did notice after I had opened the 243 brass with some cutters was that the corrosion on the outside was not coming through from the inside. The corrosion spots were in different places.
The corrosion on the outside of almost all of the brass was confined to near the shoulder and a spot on the front and the back of the cases on the 243 and slightly below the neck of the 45-70. Both would correspond to where the brass would have been held while pouring powder through a funnel, so I am guessing that I ( or whoever loaded them ) got contamination on his fingers from handling the powder and transferred it to the brass.

[odfairfaxsub]

What could have been on a funnel or fingers to corrode brass and clump powder?

[MT Gianni]

What could have been on a funnel or fingers to corrode brass and clump powder?

Lee case lube will do it if not wiped off.

[tomme boy]

Fix the the link in your pics. they don't work

[Winger Ed.]

Sweaty hands will do that, especially if ya have a lot of salt in your diet.

One of the old writers for Guns & Ammo had a friend he called 'Acid hands'.
Everything he touched rusted or corroded.

[RogerDat]

I have seen spots of corrosion on commercial ammo that was stored in a cloth bag in a not climate controlled environment for a fairly long time. Few years anyway. I think the space was sometimes heated but often allowed to be cold or damp. I always figured it was caused by condensation that was held in places the bullets touched but it was just a theory.

[milkman]

My guess is that the powder was in the process of going bad but wasn't noticeable. Whatever made the powder damp was corrosive and probably some transferred to my fingers and from there to the brass as it was handled.

I don't have the slightest idea how to fix the pictures. I followed the procedure for attatchments, and they loaded in the download window, but uploaded as an attachment location. I can click on the attatchment and a picture comes up, but it may just be loading from the pictures on my computer. Sorry

[Hamish]

Fix the the link in your pics. they don't work

Saying it like that, I'd tell you to pound sand. milkman' been a member here a sight more than either one of us.

[tomme boy]

Hate to say it but I was stating a problem. I was not bashing him or what he was doing. You don't like it then don't freakin comment. And everyone wonders why everyone is leaving this place.

[fast ronnie]

I had never heard of the Lee lube causing issues. This is the first I'd heard of it. Personally, I use the old RCBS stuff, as I have several tubes of it. It has it's own problems.

I have known of people in machine shops to have red fingers. (everything they touch turns red)

I've been fortunate never to had that happen.

Sorry about the damage, though -----

[AllanD]

Decades ago my brother found an old hardware store that had a bunch of old Remington ammo
(old enough to be in the (Red & Green boxes) Later at the range I was looking at him to see what
the issue was because he had several unexplained flyers, and I noticed a faint wisp of smoke when he fired.

On Examination several of his REM-UMC cartridge cases had K-splits (Down the side through the extractor groove to the edge of the primer pocket) and we decided at that point that firing any more would be a very bad idea...

The problem was not over-aged propellant (presumed to have been IMR4350 or similar), but to have been with another storage issue, as it turns out the ammo had shared a metal shelf with a rotary oscillating fan for several decades, the vibration of which had accelerated age hardening of the brass.

I still have 60-odd of those rounds 270WIN, 130gr Bronze Point expanders that are in my "To be broken down" Box.
(to recover the bullets)

My firing them is not likely, I don't own a 270.

But FWIW we didn't stop soon enough as switching to other Federal Factory ammo revealed that the last round had wrecked the riveted extractor

The real moral of the story is that Bargains are not always bargains!

Some $5/box ammo almost cost him a shiny new $500 (At the time) Rifle

[JimB..]

What do ya’ll think about the possibility of condensation inside a cartridge?

If you load when it’s 90 degrees and 80% humidity I think you’ll have damp powder in the cartridge in winter.

I don’t recall anyone ever being concerned about it, but I try to load for plinking when it’s cold and dry and otherwise shoot what I load pretty quickly.

Not sure that it’s relevant to this discussion, but thought maybe.

[merlin101]

I don't think you mentioned how or where they were stored, could they have gotten wet or even stored in a damp location? Maybe they where and your buddy didn't realize it or is embarrassed to admit it, but that's what it sounds like to me.

[243winxb]

I had some IMR 4895 Dupont go bad in the can. Old age i guess.

Modern powders have more additives in them to better control ageing. Googe the chemicals listed for the powders. http://ns.hodgdon.com/msds.html

Heat seems to be the biggest problem.

[Froogal]

I use the Lee resizing lube when expanding the mouth. I've witnessed the stuff falling into the case, but have never experienced any powder failure because of it.

[waksupi]

Fingers can cause this. One of my peeves is jerks at gun shows who think they need to put their finger in the muzzle of a gun. Some people have particularly acidic fingers, and can cause corrosion in short order. I've run off a couple people from my tables for doing that.

[303Guy]

I've witnessed erratic loads from a mates gun. He stopped firing them when his bolt jammed from peening of the lug recesses. I pulled the rest and found clumping so figured this was happening in the powder measure, short charging some and overcharging others. That powder would have been damp in the measure. No sign of corrosion though. Then I have found loaded rounds as well as empty case with greenish patches of corrosion on them. They cleaned up Ok. I figured it could have been mice. Mice pee little drops as they go along sometimes. Or so I speculated. Perhaps it was insects?

[Sig556r]

Lee case lube will do it if not wiped off.

It's advertised by Lee as water-based lube, so most probably...

[john.k]

If nitro powder is detiorating ,it will have an acidic/sour smell...........because free acid is what is breaking down the granules.....it usually is also masses of fine red dust..........and I have tried once or twice to sieve out the dust,only to have the solid grains left turn to dust in days.............I found duds caused by bullet lube,even plain beeswax will cause duds,if shavings get into the case in loading..............and for sure some people have highly corrosive fingers ,not even sweat ,as far as I can see,just corrosive fingerprints........I know one relation who can strip blue with a fingertouch,and turn polished brass handles brown .