Educate me on “conversion cylinders” and “smokeless Cowboy loads”

[bedbugbilly]

I didn’t really know which forum in so hopefully those with conversion cylinder experience will find it here. Mods please move if necessary.

I have a couple of questions in regards to conversion cylinders for cap and ball and safe loads using smokeless powder.

Gun – Uberti Remington 1857 NMA REVOLVING CARBINE (not pistol) in .44 caliber – 18 inch barrel.

All boolits will be soft lead.

For using the carbine in percussion mode – I’ll be using Goex with either a 141 grain .454 round ball or the Jonston & Dow 211 grain “conical” (mold made by Eras Gone and copy of the original Civil War Johnston & Dow bullet).

CONVERSION CYLINDER for above carbine – Taylor’s (Howell I believe is the manufacturer?) in 45 Colt. I have a good supply of both 45 Colt and 45 Schofield brass.

Black Powder Cartridges – not an issue as I’m used to loading compressed loads in 38 Colt Short, Long and Special as well as 45 Colt/Schofield. I’ll be using Goex (because I have a supply of it) and probably both a 200 grain round flat nose soft lead and .454 soft lead round balls for “gallery loads”. Compressed load with a cardboard card over powder and bullet seated on top of card. For the RB gallery cartridges – same thing with the round ball seated against the card just below the center line of the ball and slight roll crimp to secure ball. Pollisbly a lube cake between ball and card for the round ball and finger lube on the 200 grain RNFP.

MY QUESTION IS IN REGARDS TO THE CONVERSION CYLINDER AND SMOKELESS LOADS –

I’ve looked at the Howell cylinders for a while and some dealers state cowboy loads only – some say no smokless. From what I’m reading, the velocity wants to be kept below 800 fps or so with smokeless. I’m thinking of loading at the low end of the chart according to my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook – 3rd edition. Somewhere in the 500 – 600 fps area.

I usually have Red Dot, Green Dot and Unique on hand. In my Ubeerti Cattleman 45 – 7 ½” barrel – Red Dot and Green Dot seem to give me the best accuracy with the Lyman/Ideal 454-190 traditional 250 ish grain boolit. I’ve read that a lot of those in the CAS like “TrailBoss” but in the places I get powder, they just don’t have it so I’m looking at the above powders I have – preferable Red Dot as I have a full 8 pound jug of it.

I’ll be loading both the .454 round ball and the 200 grain RNFP boolits – soft lead – and my question is in regards to both the 18 inch barrel of the carbine and the Howell/Taylor’s Conversion Cylinder. This is going to be strictly a “fun gun” to play with – 25 to 50 yards maximum range.

If I keep my Red Dot loads at the low end of the loading chart – what they list in the 500 – 500 fps range for pistol cartridges, will they work sufficiently well in the longer 18” barrel without causing higher pressures and resulting in damage to the conversion cylinder?

Just trying to get my thoughts straight on using the conversion cylinder for 45 Colt in the revolving carbine and keeping everything “safe”.

The idea of being able to use the 1858 Remington revolving carbine in both percussion/BP and the ability to put in a conversion cylinder to use both BP and smokeless 45 Colt/Schofield cartridges is appealing in my mind. If I can develop some lower pressure smokeless loads that will work well in both my 7 ½ Cattleman and the 18” carbine without having to keep cartridges separate is even more appealing. Not shooting competition – just killing cans and punching holes in paper.

Suggestions, thoughts, education on what to expect with a conversion cylinder, smokeless and longer 18” barrel - or even one legged chickens greatly appreciated!

Thanks.

[Maven]

bbb, I can't answer your question re smokeless powder & conversion cylinders, but I'm certain that Outpost75 can. If he doesn't post a reply, why not send him a PM?

[Outpost75]

My only experience with conversion cylinders is with the .45s from Walt Kirst, which I have used in the Pietta 1858 Remington and the Ruger Old Army.

The Kirst cylinders are OK with any standard pressure (not +P) load. I used factory lead 255-grain in the .45 Colt for the Pietta, and GI hardball in the .45 ACP version for the Ruger Old Army. No issues.

Can't speak to the Howell or Taylor conversions.

[ofitg]

Here is the Kirst FAQ page -

https://www.kirstkonverter.com/kirst-pdfs/FAQs.pdf

They stipulate that pressures should not exceed 12,000 PSI, and they warn that jacketed bullets will cause excessive wear to the soft steel in Italian barrels.

I don't know how they arrived at that pressure limit, or whether it would truly apply to every type of conversion cylinder. Maybe just the lawyers talking?

[Outpost75]

Here is the Kirst FAQ page -

https://www.kirstkonverter.com/kirst-pdfs/FAQs.pdf

They stipulate that pressures should not exceed 12,000 PSI, and they warn that jacketed bullets will cause excessive wear to the soft steel in Italian barrels.

I don't know how they arrived at that pressure limit, or whether it would truly apply to every type of conversion cylinder. Maybe just the lawyers talking?

The limitation is in the soft, annealed, plain carbon steel used in the Italian guns. When I was at Ruger I fitted a Kirst conversion cylinder to a Ruger Old Army and fired it with industry standard .45 ACP proof loads, then xray, ultrasonic tested and Magnafluxed the cylinder. After that we fired over 1000 rounds of GI hardball and there were no issues in the Ruger, as it is made from the same 4140 chrome-moly as other Ruger revolvers, just not heat treated to the same specs. But even non-heat-treated 4140 is strong and tough.

The strength issues are only with the black powder proofed revolvers, which will "shoot loose".

[ofitg]

I've seen a few posts from guys who brag of "hot-rodding" the conversion cylinder loads in their Italian guns, but I question what they gain by it.

For recreational purposes, the black powder pressures (ie, up to 12,000 PSI) seem adequate.

[Tackleberry41]

Its the cylinder, they are pretty thin once your using brass cases. The howell cyl the cyl lock detent is right on top of the chamber, so is paper thin. Does not take much to blow one up.

14k is the max limit on standard pressure loads. Cowboy loads will use lead bullets. So long as your not running max loads, you will be under that 14k limit, closer to the 12k for the cylinder.

Early ones I loaded were trailboss, now I use 5477. Ran various loads over my chrony, 5477 gave the most consistent loads, narrowest velocity spread. Unique worked, but in that big case might swing 150fps. Your at 900fps, 750fps is not a problem, your down at 600fps, they might not come out the end of the barrel if they are 150fps slower. Yea I know that big charge of 5477 will not burn all the way in a pistol barrel, but they were the most accurate and consistent. And plenty safe in a conversion cylinder.

Data from my notes.
6.5gr unique, min load in Lyman book is 6.0-6.3 depending on the bullet. That gave 539 avg fps. ES 43.02fps.
7.5gr universal, 693 avg fps. ES 98.38fps.
17.5gr 5744, 722 avg velocity. ES 16.51fps.
19.0gr 5744, 778fps, ES was only 13.74fps.

I had changed the OAL length on the loads, all using the NOE 250gr RNFP, .452, tumble lube.
17.6gr 5744 at 1.575 OAL vs 1.60, 843fps, and a huge ES of 3.23fps.
8.0gr Trueblue, 825fps avg, ES 23.47fps.

Lyman has no listing for 5744. Came from the western powder book, 14k standard loads. 17.6gr was min load at 1.60OAL w a 255gr SWC. Max was 19.5gr.
19.0gr 5744, 778fps, ES was only 13.74fps.

[bob208]

I have a uberti 1858 Remington pistol in stainless steel with a conversion cylinder. I shoot 225 gr. rcbs bullets with 8 gr. unique in mine shoots good. in fact I keep it loaded in the toolbox in the shop I don't have to worry about rust.

[kaiser]

I have two Taylor conversion cylinders in .45 Colt; one for the Ruger "Old Army" and one for my 1958's (currently on a Sheriff model). Like previously posters (thanks for the great info BTW!), I only use "cowboy loads" with lead bullets below 14,000psi. My Ruger likes 5.8gr Trail Boss and 255RNFP and my 1858 likes 6.0gr (T.B.) with a Lee 230RN (normally used in the .45ACP) bullet. Neither conversion cylinder required any additional "modifications" to fit; and have delivered excellent accuracy, and shoot close enough to the original POA to be useful. At these levels, they are really pleasant pistols to shoot, yet with their "big" bullets hit the targets with a bit more "thump" than the Round Ball loads.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks to everyone for your kind response and information - I'm adding it all to my "notebook" that I keep.

I have always been interested in the Remington Revolving Rifles/Carbines - if for nothing more than the "history" of them - certainly not competitive with the Winchester 1866 and other Winchester models but still interesting to me. I remember when these started being reproduced MANY years ago and as a kid in the early 60s - they caught my eye. The Uberti is on its way to me and a 45 Colt/Schofield Conversion Cylinder from Taylor's is as well.

When I get back to MI in the spring, I'll start playing with it and the loads and will make a post at that time when I see how it does. Sorry to post this in the handgun section but I greatly appreciate the replies on the conversion cylinders - now that I will have one for the carbine - that means a Remington NMA .44 needs to go on the "list"!

Thanks again.