Reloading EverythingRotoMetals2WidenersRepackbox
Lee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters SupplyLoad DataInline Fabrication
Titan Reloading
Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Swaging / drawing questions

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    2,516

    Swaging / drawing questions

    Greetings all! I have read many posts here and in other forums about using bullets designed for the 357 magnum in a 351 wsl. Can someone please enlighten me on this procedure? I have an order mold for a 180gr +/- boolit, but frankly I have had poor experiences with casting in my '05's, 07's, and 1910's. I would really like to learn more about using readily available jacketed bullets sized to function.
    Thank you in advance! I really enjoy hearing all of the varying experiences on this forum, and appreciate how you all take time to educate those of us who are less knowledgeable.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    rancher1913's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    plains of colorado
    Posts
    3,640
    not the most experienced at this but here goes. to swag a boolit you compress it into a special die, so to make a 357 into a 351 would take a bit of doing and you would have to be using half jackets so the lead has a place to go. you can then reform the point. you would end up with a boolit that was the same weight as the starting one unless you trim off some lead. you would be much better getting a swag set up for a 351 and starting from scratch.
    if you are ever being chased by a taxidermist, don't play dead

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy


    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Posts
    427
    Agree with Rancher to a point. There are dies which force a larger bullet through a sizing ring to be smaller, but there are limits to how much that can work. .006" should be doable, but might be approaching the limit. After it's over, you still need the bullet to be concentric and have a nice ogive. You could get a resizing die that will form your .357 bullets to .350 and then get a point form die at .351 to perfectly reshape your bullet and made it ready to reload. This would be relatively inexpensive as you are starting with commercial bullets and just reshaping what is there. You'd be bypassing core formation, core seating and other potential operations which add to the time and cost.

    In general, swaging dies are made so each previous operation fits inside the next die, so there is no "swaging down" only "swaging up". To try that would hopelessly stick the bullet in the swaging die and cause a lot of work to remove. By smaller, most places operate on the order of 3/10,000 or so. Doesn't have to be a lot, but can't be bigger. You might start with a resizing approach since there are so many 357 bullets available.
    Zbench

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    392
    Went down this road some years ago and finally just ordered .351 and .401 (actually .406 for the .401WSL) 3 die sets for my self loaders. Drawing down .357's just doesn't work too well and the expense and hassle of draw dies to get from A to B was not recommended by Richard C.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

    firefly1957's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Harrison Michigan
    Posts
    2,782
    I commented on another post to you my sizing die maker is no longer in business but i think you can get Lee Precision to make a push though size in .351 . Above it is stated .006 is about the limit to size a jacketed bullet that is correct Using a RSBS Rockchucker press i must adjust it just right to get it sized . Two steps may be better say .354 then .351 and the proper lube is a must case lube can be used .
    I do get good accuracy from jacketed .357 bullets sized to .351 with iron sights have shot 1 inch 50 yard groups.
    You could also get a existing Lee push though die in the next smaller size and lap it to .351 if you have the ability .
    When I think back on all the **** I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all ! And then my lack of education hasn't hurt me none I can read the writing on the wall.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    2,516
    Quote Originally Posted by firefly1957 View Post
    I commented on another post to you my sizing die maker is no longer in business but i think you can get Lee Precision to make a push though size in .351 . Above it is stated .006 is about the limit to size a jacketed bullet that is correct Using a RSBS Rockchucker press i must adjust it just right to get it sized . Two steps may be better say .354 then .351 and the proper lube is a must case lube can be used .
    I do get good accuracy from jacketed .357 bullets sized to .351 with iron sights have shot 1 inch 50 yard groups.
    You could also get a existing Lee push though die in the next smaller size and lap it to .351 if you have the ability .
    Thank you for your help. Yes, the moderator moved my post shortly after I put it up.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    2,516
    I thank you all for your help and replies. This experience has made me realize that my knowledge base is lacking in this department! Can anyone direct me to a source that will help? I do have an interest in this, but it turns out that my circle of knowledge is not up to even knowing what I don't know.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Logan, Ut.
    Posts
    494
    Dave Corbin has boat loads of info on his website. I think he still has a free book on swaging somewhere on there.

    http://www.corbins.com/
    Last edited by nun2kute; 03-05-2019 at 10:45 PM. Reason: ad link
    Good Judgment comes from Experience, Experience comes from Bad Judgment !

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    2,516
    Quote Originally Posted by nun2kute View Post
    Dave Corbin has boat loads of info on his website. I think he still has a free book on swaging somewhere on there.

    http://www.corbins.com/
    Thank you for the help!

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master
    rockrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    5,311
    You could get Lee Precision to make you a .354" cast boolit size die , along with a .351" die. I wouldn't go over .003" at a time. You might end up with a core a bit loose in the jacket when you are done, but they still might shoot very well. You won't know till you try. I have sized .458" bullets down to .452" in two steps and they didn't group as well as factory .452" bullets, but you are talking 1.5" groups vs. 2" groups @ 100yds

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    2,516
    Quote Originally Posted by rockrat View Post
    You could get Lee Precision to make you a .354" cast boolit size die , along with a .351" die. I wouldn't go over .003" at a time. You might end up with a core a bit loose in the jacket when you are done, but they still might shoot very well. You won't know till you try. I have sized .458" bullets down to .452" in two steps and they didn't group as well as factory .452" bullets, but you are talking 1.5" groups vs. 2" groups @ 100yds
    Rockrat - your reply prompted a thought. If you purchase 351 bullets from Buffalo Arms, they appear to be .358 but sized to the correct diameter. Any chance this is something that can be done on a budget? And without turning down the bullet? (i.e lathe, etc ).

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    791
    The problem with making a jacketed bullet a smaller diameter is the springiness of the copper jacket. The core will remain what it was squished down to, but the jacket will expand a bit, leaving the core loose. To reform a .357 to .351 and have a properly tight jacket, the .357 would first have to be reduced enough that the jacket springs back to less than .351, say .349-.350. Then, in a second step, swaged up to .351, thus stretching the jacket which will then hold the core tightly. The jacket, wanting to shrink back down to it's overly reduced .349-.350 diameter will allow the swaged bullet to be pushed out of the .351 swage die without great effort.

    Plated bullets have the copper plated directly onto the core, so it's bonded like a solder joint and they can be sized somewhat without damage, but overworking of the plating may cause it to delaminate and have flaking and exposed sharp edges. Going from .357 to .351 may be a stretch with those, unless the plating is thin.

    Cast, however, being made of a single homogenous material, have no such considerations and can be sized to the needed diameter - if the alloy is stiff enough to be sized .006 or so in one pass without deforming the bases or noses. It might be better to size them in two passes, say .358 to .355, and then to .352.

    Have you considered paper patching? A fat .338 boolit, casting at .340 can be patched up to .352 pretty easily.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

    firefly1957's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Harrison Michigan
    Posts
    2,782
    I size Jacketed .357 bullets to .351 and have no problems with accuracy even IF the jacket sprung back the trip into the rifling would tighten it again! The Sierra 170 gr JHC shoots 1 inch 50 yard groups sized to .351 the only issue is they are a bit aggressive for deer a solid bullet may be better choice.
    When I think back on all the **** I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all ! And then my lack of education hasn't hurt me none I can read the writing on the wall.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    2,516
    Quote Originally Posted by yeahbub View Post
    The problem with making a jacketed bullet a smaller diameter is the springiness of the copper jacket. The core will remain what it was squished down to, but the jacket will expand a bit, leaving the core loose. To reform a .357 to .351 and have a properly tight jacket, the .357 would first have to be reduced enough that the jacket springs back to less than .351, say .349-.350. Then, in a second step, swaged up to .351, thus stretching the jacket which will then hold the core tightly. The jacket, wanting to shrink back down to it's overly reduced .349-.350 diameter will allow the swaged bullet to be pushed out of the .351 swage die without great effort.

    Plated bullets have the copper plated directly onto the core, so it's bonded like a solder joint and they can be sized somewhat without damage, but overworking of the plating may cause it to delaminate and have flaking and exposed sharp edges. Going from .357 to .351 may be a stretch with those, unless the plating is thin.

    Cast, however, being made of a single homogenous material, have no such considerations and can be sized to the needed diameter - if the alloy is stiff enough to be sized .006 or so in one pass without deforming the bases or noses. It might be better to size them in two passes, say .358 to .355, and then to .352.

    Have you considered paper patching? A fat .338 boolit, casting at .340 can be patched up to .352 pretty easily.
    I've never thought of that! So I gave it a try. Buddy of mine is really into paper patching, so he made up 5 for me. Looked awesome. Unfortunately, the patching didn't survive the trip from magazine to chamber. I still like the idea, and my friend is trying something different with them.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub EVR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Mountains
    Posts
    65


    I have had excellent experience drawing .375 cal lead-cored bullets down to fit various 9.3 caliber rifles. This requires reduction from .375 to .366 or thereabouts to fit various rifles. Excellent accuracy can be obtained and excellent terminal performance as well. The above example is from a 225 grain Hornady Spire Point drawn down with LEE dies to .367 diameter for use in a Husqvarna 9.3x57 rifle. As Elmer Keith used to say about various medium bores..."You can eat right up to the hole!"

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    2,516
    Quote Originally Posted by EVR View Post


    I have had excellent experience drawing .375 cal lead-cored bullets down to fit various 9.3 caliber rifles. This requires reduction from .375 to .366 or thereabouts to fit various rifles. Excellent accuracy can be obtained and excellent terminal performance as well. The above example is from a 225 grain Hornady Spire Point drawn down with LEE dies to .367 diameter for use in a Husqvarna 9.3x57 rifle. As Elmer Keith used to say about various medium bores..."You can eat right up to the hole!"
    What is this a cut out from? I have looked at it several times and I don't understand why there isn't any bruising. Was it from a carcass you fired into? thank you

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub EVR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Mountains
    Posts
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by cwtebay View Post
    What is this a cut out from? I have looked at it several times and I don't understand why there isn't any bruising. Was it from a carcass you fired into? thank you

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    From a big whitetail. Shot with a 9.3x57 and a drawn-down Hornady 225 grain Spire Point running at 2550 fps. Knocks a big hole without much bloodshot meat.

    This range cow was shot with a Hornady 270 grain Spire Point reduced in LEE dies to 9.3 caliber. Owner told me wolves chased it, causing it to go rogue and bust out of the paddock and up on the mountain behind my ranch.



    Owner called my son and I and we all tried to round them up but were unsuccessful. I gave my then-14-year old son my scoped .375 H&H Magnum and I took the 9.3x57 and I got the shot way up on the south face just below the ridge.

    The bullet-drawing method should be applicable to a number of calibers; 9.3-to-.358/9mm, 8mm/.323 S caliber-to-.318 I, etc, etc, and some biggees as well.

    "Monolithic" brass/bronze/copper bullets are no bueno, but lead-core conventionally jacketed bullets work well.
    Last edited by EVR; 03-27-2019 at 11:35 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    2,516
    Quote Originally Posted by EVR View Post
    From a big whitetail. Shot with a 9.3x57 and a drawn-down Hornady 225 grain Spire Point running at 2550 fps. Knocks a big hole without much bloodshot meat.

    This range cow was shot with a Hornady 270 grain Spire Point reduced in LEE dies to 9.3 caliber. Owner told me wolves chased it, causing it to go rogue and bust out of the paddock and up on the mountain behind my ranch.



    Owner called my son and I and we all tried to round them up but were unsuccessful. I gave my then-14-year old son my scoped .375 H&H Magnum and I took the 9.3x57 and I got the shot way up on the south face just below the ridge.

    The bullet-drawing method should be applicable to a number of calibers; 9.3-to-.358/9mm, 8mm/.323 S caliber-to-.318 I, etc, etc, and some biggees as well.

    "Monolithic" brass/bronze/copper bullets are no bueno, but lead-core conventionally jacketed bullets work well.
    I have always been a fan of the saying, "corpses don't bruise". Hence my question. Bruising / bloodshot meat is a result of capillary ooze with cardiac output driving it. Whenever I see pale edges of a wound I wonder.
    Nice picture.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check