Below Zero with Cast

[Shiloh]

The mid 'teens were as cold As I've shot cast for groups.

Whether it was this cold shooter, or the cold weather, the groups were low and a bit bigger. Any of you gentlemen fired cast in very cold and extreme cold?? What were the groups like?
We had days of -20˚ and nights of -30's˚. Wind chills to -62˚.

Shiloh

[Jniedbalski]

That’s to cold .,I don’t get out of the house when it’s below 30 unless I have to

[Tripplebeards]

Haven’t tried cast but my avatar is from a 100 yard group with my pof p415 14.5” barrel at 10 below with a 15 mph wind. I shot a .3” group at 200 yards and called it quits before I got frost bite. It was a negative thirty five with windchill. I was leaving g the next day for AZ predator hunting with it or I would have never been out.b

I would assume the cold weather has to harden alloy a bit besides dropping powder pressure.

I would have went out the last couple of days but don’t feel like walking through 3 feet of snow to set up and check targets.

[megasupermagnum]

I shoot all year round. I have not kept good enough records to show a difference in accuracy with a particular load. My finding is little if any change with scoped rifles. Some claim the first shot can be a wild flyer, yet I have never seen it on paper. I am using Canaruba Red. With open sighted guns, especially handguns, it seems to be more of a challenge to shoot accurately. I don't think it's the ammo, but especially with a little wind in my face, it becomes increasingly hard to see the sights clearly the colder it gets. Your eyes water, and you just can't get a clear picture. I shot a brand new revolver the day it was -34, and was rather surprised to find the first 12 shots go into a 4" groups at 50 yards. I never shoot with gloves, and I couldn't even feel the trigger by shot 12.

We had closed my work that day due to safety concerns. I used it as a day to test Bluedot powder, as a number of people claim it just goes poof once it hits 40 degrees. I've previously tested in -15, but this is the first time I've ever shot in anything this cold, and it had only warmed up to about -28 by the time I was out there. No bloopers by the way, and no pressure spiking. Out of the 30 rounds of 44 magnum, and 50 rounds of 12 gauge (both sat in the garage overnight), nothing was out of the ordinary. This myth that Bluedot is worse in the cold than any other old school powder is beyond ridiculous.


Sorry about that tangent, I just wanted to make a point that the cold doesn't effect things nearly as much as people seem to think they do. If you are shooting rifle, it's a long walk to the 200 yard target in this snow. A snowmobile will improve your groups more than anything, as you won't feel like you just climbed a mountain.

[popper]

IIRC the powder may not light correctly at cold. Not enough difference to affect alloy or gun. Accuracy depends on shivers by the shooter.

[Yodogsandman]

I've shot down to about -10*F. My own experience is like yours, less velocity and larger groups. I was able to figure out that lube played a big role in the accuracy. At the time, I used Lyman Orange Magic and found that adding a coat of Lee alox as an overcoat helped groups a little. Now, 30 years later, I would use a lube that didn't change viscosity with low temperatures and just might only use a tumble lube like BLL, Bens Liquid Lube. Sorry, we don't get a lot of cold days that extreme or I would have more data to go on.

[Conditor22]

If you powder coat there's less of an issue.

[JBinMN]

This Winter I have not been out to shoot outside since around muzzle load hunting right before Christmas & it was still relatively warm.

I decided not to go shooting much when it gets too cold, since over the years I have found that even the tools I used in outdoor construction had a tendency to break down more often with cold snaps & it just caused more grief than it was worth on some days.

I felt the same about "some" of the firearms I have...

The all steel ( with wood/no plastics) firearms would be fine, IMO, but anything plastic or lighter built metals may not stand the cold well enough.


The missus .357 LCR for example. It has mostly steel & shoots great, but it has a bit of what I call, "plastic", although I think they call it "polymer", that would concern me when the temps get lower than -0- F.. Another would be the inexpensive Highpoint .380 I have for plinking. I don't know exactly what metal they are made of, but I am not sure I want the possibility of a sort of hand grenade going off in my hand, if it is not up to the cold.

I even change to all steel 45ACP, or snubbie 38 for CCW for the Cold months & likely won't change up to the 9mm too often until things warm up a bit, since it has some "plastic/polymer" too.. ALthough on the warmer days I have carried it some...

So, I don't have much to offer for accuracy & performance differences as far as components & firearms go this year due to the cold.

I do know that I asked about some cold weather info from the forum in topics in the last couple years & got little to no response. What folks do , like for gloves & such. What performance changes they saw in "Temp. Sensitive" powders, etc...
Seemed like no one was much interested... So, I just quit asking about such things.

Looks like you are doing a bit better in that.


Hope to see more responses anyway!

[gloob]

I suspect it's more on the powder than the bullet.

[Bazoo]

I am interested! I don't have much to offer in the way of experience though. All my shooting has been in the 20 above range. I remember bout 15 years ago I had a Ruger 22/45 that worked perfectly in normal and colder temperatures, but when I used tetra gun grease on the bolt it malfunctioned in winter. I went back to remoil. I'd like to learn more about cold weather firearms and ammo subjects for sure. And gloves and clothing too.

[randyrat]

Doing some more testing myself this winter,as every winter, sorry I can't give more details. Lube does make a difference, especially when you want that cold COLD first shot to count. Now, I don't shoot high powered super long range shots, just hunting distances that I run into, common in this area 50 -100 yards.
Just missed -30--35 or so below zero test, had to work. It is common to hunt in Nov at 10 Deg F to Zero so that is most of my testing
I shoot 5 rounds and change guns, only interested in first 2-5 rounds. White tail don't stand there and wait.
I am hopeful to offer you all my Cold weather lube this fall in the VS section, I gotta get back into it.

Side note; I am going to stay with my one "niche" lube, because that is what I do best. White label lubes can fill your needs for all your other lube needs

[dverna]

There was a guy on the forum who did a lot of cold weather testing. It was an interesting read. Must have been 4-5 years ago....about the time the Three Amigos were working on an all weather lube. Cannot recall his handle but a search should find information.

The fellow stopped posting....not sure why...maybe shooting “upstairs”, got tired of getting second guessed, or...

Anyway, I thought he did a very good job, and respected his tenacity.

[Edward]

This Winter I have not been out to shoot outside since around muzzle load hunting right before Christmas & it was still relatively warm.

I decided not to go shooting much when it gets too cold, since over the years I have found that even the tools I used in outdoor construction had a tendency to break down more often with cold snaps & it just caused more grief than it was worth on some days.

I felt the same about "some" of the firearms I have...

The all steel ( with wood/no plastics) firearms would be fine, IMO, but anything plastic or lighter built metals may not stand the cold well enough.


The missus .357 LCR for example. It has mostly steel & shoots great, but it has a bit of what I call, "plastic", although I think they call it "polymer", that would concern me when the temps get lower than -0- F.. Another would be the inexpensive Highpoint .380 I have for plinking. I don't know exactly what metal they are made of, but I am not sure I want the possibility of a sort of hand grenade going off in my hand, if it is not up to the cold.

I even change to all steel 45ACP, or snubbie 38 for CCW for the Cold months & likely won't change up to the 9mm too often until things warm up a bit, since it has some "plastic/polymer" too.. ALthough on the warmer days I have carried it some...

So, I don't have much to offer for accuracy & performance differences as far as components & firearms go this year due to the cold.

I do know that I asked about some cold weather info from the forum in topics in the last couple years & got little to no response. What folks do , like for gloves & such. What performance changes they saw in "Temp. Sensitive" powders, etc...
Seemed like no one was much interested... So, I just quit asking about such things.

Looks like you are doing a bit better in that.


Hope to see more responses anyway!

All that (polmer) has been proven by armed services to be reliable in worse conditions than I/you will ever be shooting in , just sayin/Ed

[Ateam]

I was shooting my 4.5 inch sp101 match champ in 357 yesterday. I was shooting a proven load of 14g 2400 under the lyman 150 swc with lars blue. I experienced a little leading which surprised me. The only variable I change was trying a little heavier crimp to try to get the velocity es down a little. The leading was just at the start of the rifling so I doubt it was a lube failure. Not sure what caused it, my guess was cold weather caused it in some way...

[upnorthwis]

I beg to differ with anyone who says temperature doesn't affect powder. Was setting up the Dillon 550B on a 90 degree day. Wanted to get to 600+fps in .38 Spl with WW231. Would load a few and shoot them over the Oehler 35P. Then loaded up a thousand or so. They shot great all summer. Then went to a SASS match in October where is was 20. They said they could see the bullets coming out of the barrel they were so slow. Got home and shot them over chrono again. 350 fps. Recently was load testing for the .41 Swiss in single digit temps. Had several of them loaded going up in one grain increments. With every increase in powder (5744) the velocities went lower. Reloaded all of them but this time kept them in a box with hot water bottles. The velocities then went up exactly like they were supposed to.

[dragon813gt]

Some powders are more susceptible to temperature. You can read that as the old guard powders. The newer powders are designed to be temperature stable. My Grandfather would load cold weather hunting rounds w/ magnum primers to ensure ignition and performance. There was a good bit difference over the chronograph when those loads were shot in the summer heat. Enough that I would never shoot them when it was hot out.

[Larry Gibson]

Years ago when I lived in NE Oregon I shot and tested a lot of lubed cast bullets at sub freezing temps down to -5 below zero. Most were in the 10 -12 to 40 degree range. I found with most all lubes it's the first shot or two, particularly from a fouled bore, that will be flyers as randyrat mentions. The flyers with many lubes were way out there from the usual "cold bore" type shots. After a couple shots the loads most often settled down and performed more like usual as the barrel warmed up. I tried keeping the ammo warm then loading and firing before it could get too cold.....made no difference when shooting out of a cold barrel. What I surmised was the lube residue (the "fouling" or "conditioning" of the bore) in the barrel was getting very hard, similar to how lube hardens if you put it in the freezer. The first shot or two then meet undue resistance and are flyers....almost always. I also found different lubes get harder than others. I finally settled on a softer mix of Javelina with some Vaseline mixed in as working for me in colder weather. With that lube the first couple shots were never to far out at practical cast bullet ranges with a rifle (200 - 300 yards for me....200 when hunting).

With handguns I found little accuracy difference in the lube used at shorter ranges (>25 yards) with most target or medium loads. If shooting at farther ranges then best accuracy was gotten with few flyers using the softer lube. I also got some leading in revolvers just ahead of the forcing cone with some lubes in cold weather. Once I started using Javelina (NRA 50/50) lube I no longer had leading with most all of my loads regardless of the temp. With magnum revolver loads using the slower burning pistol powders a magnum primer was also needed in very cold and sub freezing temps. In magnum 357, 41 and 44 revolvers I found using lighter or even standard weight cast bullets with H110/296 could result in a "squib load" because the powder had not begun burning efficiently and the pressure vented at the barrel/cylinder gap and the fire went out leaving the bullet stuck in the forcing cone. Twice when I had it happen (once with a 357 and once with a 44 Magnum) the bullets (358421 and 429421) were far enough into the forcing cone barrel that the cylinder could (was in fact) be turned with normal hammer or trigger action bring another magnum load to be fired behind the stuck bullet.....not good.

I also found in rifles with standard magnum primers were needed with many medium and slow burning powders, especially ball powders, in sub freezing temps. Many times with the softer brisance of some standard primers give inconsistent ignition resulting in "squib loads" and hang fires.

dverna mentions the guy who did a lot of cold weather testing up in Alaska (bullshop?) who lived in Delta Junction as I recall. His postings may go back 13 - 15 years ago even in the old site/format if they are still available? As I recall he mixed a synthetic oil/lube used in snowmobiles, etc. up there into his lube for a much better viscosity at cold temps. I believe he sold his cold weather lube also(?). He did catch a raft of criticism from several "experts" here and eventually left or was banned(?). It was too bad because I tested some of his lube on some 311291s (loaded to 1950 fps over 4895 with a Dacron filler) out of my '06 in -5 degree weather on an elk hunt in NE Oregon. They shot just as well in that cold weather as they did in normal temps with minimal, if any, noticeable flyers from clean or a cold barrel. I was catching a raft from the same "experts' regarding my 311291 bullet in my '06 at the same time so my input into the lube controversy was overshadowed by the other controversy......

I thought it too bad his product was criticized just based on the "experts" opinions without any real testing but then he'd developed it without their input so it wasn't any good, or so they (the "experts", one very vocal one from Tenn.) claimed. I found that his cold weather lube did work very well in very cold temps, just as he claimed. Perhaps some of you who shoot in such cold temps (I don't anymore living here in this part of Arizona) might experiment further by adding a bit of synthetic cold weather lube to a softer lube such as NRA 50/50?

[largom]

Many things change in very cold or hot temperature extremes.
Most powders change with the exception of Hodgdon Extreme powders which are not supposed to be Temp. sensitive.
Boolit lube will change.
Lock time of the firing pin will change if any lubricant is present in the bolt.
Barrel vibrations will change
Air density changes which effects boolit travel
Everything changes with temperature but the amount of change will vary with the amount of Temp. change

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have "experienced" what I believe were cold weather pressure spikes with Blue Dot loads in 41 Mag, the loads were worked up in summer and were very near Max.

[popper]

R5R did the low temp lube test trying to develop a good cold lube with no first shot flyer. He did get results but has gone some to PC. I've tested PC @ freezing and no first shot problems, 308W cast @ 50, MOA. Shivers caused more problems than the powder or lube.