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Thread: Black guns

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    If an AR will do 4 MOA out to 500 yards, then all is right with the world. Most will do better than that. The Marine Corps finds much worse than that acceptable, lol.

  2. #42
    Boolit Buddy
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    For the most part its try that more expensive parts are better quality but with that said I've seen $600 PSA kit builds that run great and at the same time $1500 builds that run like **** and have zero accuracy. If anyone is ordering PSA kits I would recommend spending that extra $100 and get one with FN chrome lined CHF barrel.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Divedigger View Post
    I dont own one but can anybody tell me what makes the price go from the $300 to up over $2000 for a 223/5.56. AR15
    Much like the difference between the Walmart economy bolt action rifles that when you grab the forend, and squeeze, it makes contact with the barrel, or such as on Remington's abominations, the Remington Models 710 and 770 rifles, where they press fitted the barrels into the receiver, rather than thread them, you get what you pay for. If you want a nice Sako, or even a the performance of a Sako, in the form of a Tikka T3, you are not going to get it by buying the cheapest.

    *** have equivalent versions. A $350 AR might be ok, for a while, and a lot of that depends on how much the person actually uses it.

    I have put together a substantial amount of AR/M4 series rifles over the years. Both in a professional capacity and when back home, I would get asked to do some for guys who needed precision uppers for their issued guns overseas.

    My accuracy standard was always the same. 1/2 MOA using MK 262, which is what was being used by some groups, and then by individuals who wanted one built for their own use here in the states.

    This is just a single example of an SPR upper's initial break in run. The barrels I always used were White Oak Precision out of John Hollinger's shop. White Oak Has dominated NRA High Power for years and his barrels are top notch.

    Spray and pray indeed.





    While I set the majority of the uppers/rifles up to shoot military match ammo for guys downrange, I have done a bit of handloading and in doing so, I have found that they will often do quite a bit better than .5 MOA.

    It makes me chuckle when lots of guys (hard to break deeply entrenched thinking patterns) refuse to accept that an AR is capable of shooting itty bitty groups. Then when you start ringing an 800 yard plate with a .223 they think it is a trick..


    At my cabin I have plates set up at various ranges and the 77 grain SMKs will easily reach out and ring the steel.




    And that is with a match barrel I had turned down to "pencil" profile, using a carbon fiber fore-end. The end result was a super light weight hunting rifle that is capable from right in front of you, to distances that most people would not suspect. A few unsuspecting coyotes have gone to the great hunting grounds, due to thinking "Meh that's just an AR, I am 500 yards away, I am safe."..




    When I was home in the states on break (I used to manage 3 U.S. Embassy Armories, when I was not out doing other things) I would build a few of these for friends. But back to the original question about why the cost difference. A cheap chrome lined PSA barrel is not likely to shoot like a WOA Match, or Krieger. Plus you will never squeeze the accuracy potential out of a rifle unless you have a high quality, reliable trigger. These are just for starters. The fact is that the price for just those two components alone can cost as much or more than a bargain basement complete PSA rifle. That also does not factor in all the other things that a properly trained DOD/DOS armorer is going to do to set up a rifle properly, versus a ewetube trained kitchen table hobbyist.

    The phrase "you get what you pay for" hold true in many areas in life, and it certainly holds true with rifles. Yes, there will always be stories of that are the exception rather than the rule, where a $400 AR can shoot 1" groups "all day long, but I pretty much never actually see them at a range in real life when you ask to see such performance right then and there, instead of someone just showing a single piece of paper, with 3 holes in it. I always wonder about the 5 other groups that he chose to dismiss, or simply not show the whole piece of paper.


    And all of this is brought to you by a guy who really likes bolt actions..

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master






    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    that's what the guys who drive range rovers tell the guys driving yukons. At least up till the they find there less reliable and the only think they really do better is drain your wallet.
    Quote Originally Posted by SvenLindquist View Post
    If you get to shoot a $3-5000.00 AR you will understand. It's like going from a Stevens 311 double to a best grade Holland & Holland.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divedigger View Post
    I dont own one but can anybody tell me what makes the price go from the $300 to up over $2000 for a 223/5.56. AR15

    Parts,parts and parts
    you can buy cheap stuff or expensive parts
    barrels are a good example you are going to pay for a good barrel
    and if you want a decent trigger group you are going to pay for that as well
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Mil-spec means it is built to military specifications - dimensions, metal treating, etc. It does NOT mean it is made to a higher quality standard! Mil standard does NOT cover trigger pull or barrel lapping! Good stuff is not only machined to mil-spec but QCd to the spec.
    If we paint them PINK the libtards will find them acceptable??
    Whatever!

  7. #47
    Boolit Buddy
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    I shoot dirt clods and stumps with mine. My home defense AR has a S&W lower with a Colt upper and has 800 trouble free rds through it. I keep it clean and well lubed. All bought used but like new. I ain't going to war. If I were, I would take my 870.

  8. #48
    Boolit Buddy
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    The difference is largely in the eye of the beholder. I strongly dislike the AR platform, so to me there is no difference except your just that much more an idiot for buying an expensive one.

  9. #49
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    yup none of us are taking our own rifles into battle. I don't think anyone buying a 400 dollar ar15 is looking for 1/2 moa either. Things is for 400 bucks you can sure buy a 1moa gun and go out and buy 10 bolt action guns for twice that and ill about guarantee you that 1/2 of them wont and if your talking rugers (other then americans) probably 3/4s of them wont. I don't even think a soldier needs a sub moa gun unless hes a squad sniper. Been lots of red white and blue put 6 feet under by aks and aks's. Ive put together at least a half a dozen psa entry level guns. All of them shot moa or better. Heck my stag heavy barreled 16 inch gun will shoot 1/2 moa and to be honest ive owned 4 heavy barreled bolt guns in 223 and one in 22250 and would be running around showing everyone who'd look a target shot by one of them that had a 5 shot 1/2 inch group. Funny thing is Some did moa with surplus ball bullets. Some even with pulled surplus ball bullets. Feed surplus powder and surplus pulled bullets into your nice heavy barreled bolt gun and id be impressed if it shot moa. the supplied rifles for our military are mill spec. Colt isn't going out and putting 500 dollar barrels or 300 dollar bolts in them. If they did theyd loose money. 4oo dollar *** are like showing up to a bulleye match with a 200 dollar high point and some wolf ammo and beating everyone there. The tweed jacket pipe smokers laugh when you go up to the line but CRAWL out of there with there head between there legs at the end of the match. Like I said too you don't grab a gun and shoot 1/2moa. You have to learn to shoot that well. Id bet the typical gun that buys a cheap ar doesn't worry his accuracy is going to fall off in 5000 rounds so best leave it in the safe. Heck a decent day is 500 rounds. That my friends is what an ar is really about. Its not about shooting tiny groups or showing it off inside the gun club. Its pounding steel and getting a barrel hot enough to smoke. Its about having a good time like you did when dad gave you your first gun and for me anyway theres no gun that does that better then a ar15. To me high dollar *** are like gourmet venison or peach beer at a brew pub or going to a wine tasting party. You can have it. Give me a good 400 dollar 300 bo and 500 rounds loaded with cast bullets a bottle of bud and a jug of clear.
    Quote Originally Posted by lightload View Post
    I shoot dirt clods and stumps with mine. My home defense AR has a S&W lower with a Colt upper and has 800 trouble free rds through it. I keep it clean and well lubed. All bought used but like new. I ain't going to war. If I were, I would take my 870.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 07-05-2019 at 03:15 PM.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    take pride in what I build
    put together a gun you carry in a case
    or throw in the back of your pick up its up to you
    I choose the former
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  11. #51
    Boolit Master



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    Mil-Spec parts are those built for .Gov by the cheapest bid contractor.

  12. #52
    Boolit Grand Master






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    actually mil spec parts are parts that the government (both those that know and those that don't and those who count pennys) decide was the minimum standard for procurement. They put out the spec sheet and then hire someone to build them. Price isn't even the main consideration. If it were I doubt our troops would be all carrying colts because my guess is dmps and bushmaster and a few more would love a chance to underbid colt.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    You’d be surprised how cheap the government gets a Colt.

  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master






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    probably true. Its probably why they charge us twice what a dmps or bushmaster that's just as good costs. They think were sappy enough to believe that the government picked them because there better quality. Not because at the time there were few contractors making them and colt probably gave more in kick backs. If ever there was a pay for the name brand in guns colt is that brand. be in rifles or handguns.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  15. #55
    Boolit Buddy Sig556r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divedigger View Post
    I dont own one but can anybody tell me what makes the price go from the $300 to up over $2000 for a 223/5.56. AR15
    Same thing with 1911s, you can buy a $399 RIA or a $4k custom...they're even auctioning one made of meteorite for $500k starting bid https://www.solidsmack.com/design/ca...ost-expensive/

  16. #56
    Boolit Man
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    The metals, the machining, and the ego massage - in varying proportions.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check