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Thread: Cast loads for deer with a 6.5X54 M-S

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    Cast loads for deer with a 6.5X54 M-S

    I became the proud owner of a neat little 1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer a year ago. I have enjoyed playing with it immensely and managed to kill a small 7 pt buck with it last month. It performed perfectly!

    Now that I have pretty well completely wrung it out with various jacketed bullets and powders, I want to turn my attention to developing a cast load for deer. I have a bag of very nice looking 160ish gr flat point gas checked bullets given to me by a friend. I loaded a dummy round this morning and it fed through the rotary magazine just as slickly as the 160 gr RN jacketed loads it was designed for.

    However, when I started looking for cast bullet load data for the 6.5X54, there was very little to be found. So, if any of you have suggestions for a good hunting load with a 160 gr bullet, I would love to hear about them. I posted this in the Hunting Forum because I'm only interested in something adequate for deer hunting, not target shooting or plinking.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master


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    Hook, I can't help you on a load for your wonderful little 6.5 Mannlicher, but I did want to congratulate you on a fine hunt and successfully taking a 7 point buck this past season. I am sure the 6.5 won't disappoint you with cast boolits either. I hear tell those rifles are top notch and between you and me, I would sure like to have one like yours. .
    Mark 5:34 And He said to her (Jesus speaking), "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace and be healed of your affliction."

  3. #3
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    I have several Lyman manuals, I'll look for 6.5 MS data for you.

    There are a lot of people who seem to think hunting with cast in the small bores is a stunt, it's not. A .30 caliber or bigger is almost a no brainer, but going that small bore, please make sure to do your homework for deer hunting with cast.

    I killed a good doe with cast in a 7mm last October and it worked fine, but it took a little more thought and figuring for me to be comfortable doing than a .30-30 or similar would have.

    Somewhere leftover from my 6.5x55 time, I have an RCBS mold that is nominally a 140 grainer with a small meplat on it, which I think if it were cast with a soft point would do the job, at least under the conditions I deer hunt in. I may get around to trying it someday, but in the meantime, I'll be interested in seeing how you do with yours.

  4. #4
    Boolit Man
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    Well smokey, I appreciate the kind words about my M-S. I've seen pictures of them for decades and have even seen them on tables at gun shows, but never had the least desire to check into them. They just didn't look right with the bolt handle amidships like they are. Then I saw one at an estate sale and made the mistake of picking it up. If you have ever swung a fine, light bird gun, you'll know what they feel like. I just had to buy it.

    I got lucky too....it's a real shooter. The rifle was built in 1939 and the scope is of the same era. It is a little milky, but otherwise as sound as an anvil. It's a Hensoldt 4X with post and crosshair and is mounted in German style claw mounts. I've tried 140 gr, 156 gr, and 160 grain reloads along with old Norma 139 and 156 gr factory loads. Everything shot in it so far has been from 1.75" down to a few at 1"!




    I bought the Norma factory stuff mainly for the brass, but I still had a handful left when hunting season opened so decided to hunt with it this year. It will be used solely with reloads from now on. I didn't see anything the first few times I carried it, so decided to shoot the first legal deer I had a chance at from then on. This little guy was chasing a doe and I got a clear shot at him before the doe. I'd have shot both if she'd have given me a chance because I needed the meat.





    I have killed deer with cast in 45-70 and 38-55, but never with such a small caliber as 6.5mm. Can't say I feel overly confident with it, but suspect bullet placement will make the difference. The Norma 139 gr factory bullet broke a rib going in, cleaned off the plumbing on top of his heart, trashed his lungs, and broke a rib going out. He went maybe 25 feet and fell on his chin. A 6.5mm cast bullet in the same place would have killed him just as dead, but I suspect he'd have gone a lot farther. I think a cast bullet from this rifle would work better through the shoulders. Is that y'alls experience?

  5. #5
    Boolit Man
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    richy, I have several older Lyman manuals as well, but their cast loads only go up to 140 gr bullets. I assume that was Lyman's largest 6.5mm mold. I have scratched up a small amount of data that can be (carefuly) extrapolated up to 160 gr bullets, but I'd hoped to hear some real world experience from you fellows. Of course, 6.5 Jap, Carcano, or the 53Rimmed cases is plenty close enough to consider to be practically identical if anyone has experience with them.

  6. #6
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    That's a nice rifle and a nice deer. My Dad had one of those rifles for a while when I was growing up, but a lot of guns came and went and I don't remember him doing much with it.

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    Do you know what mold those 160 grain flat nosed cast bullets came from?

    If I were going to develop a cast bullet deer load, and I think you can do it, I'd go with a design like you describe, cast them with soft noses (there's a sticky about how to do it), and try a powder like IMR 4895, maybe start with 25-26 grains and gradually increase it until accuracy starts dropping off.

  8. #8
    Boolit Man
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    One option is always to use the H4895 60% reduced load trick, then work up. That and checking with Accurate about a 5744 formula are options. But I have found really good results using 4227, 2400, red dot, etc., and wondered if anyone had any ideas.

    Here are the bullets. A friend ordered them from Gardner and sent me a 100 or so to play with. He said it would be awhile before he could work with them and he wanted me to play with them. I am glad to oblige him!


  9. #9
    Boolit Master

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    My old Lyman cast manual only went to 140gr, and I used somewhere around 26gr 4895 in mine (The manual specifies 20-30gr of 4895). I only tested it during practice on the silhouette range, and not for groups on paper, but it seemed to shoot alright out to 100 yards - the rams at 200 were a big stretch for the load though - it is a carbine after all. I inherited mine from my dad, who carried it all across the Brooks Range in Alaska after WWII. He fed himself for a whole summer using it, shooting everything from Hares to Caribou. It is a joy to carry and shoot though and someday I'd love to bring it back to Alaska for a hunt.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #10
    Boolit Man
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    Beautiful rifle, Baja! I can only wish mine had a family history. I have plenty of rifles, all of which get used, but absolutely nothing from my family. There were few hunters or shooters on either side and what guns they had burned in house fires or went to other relatives. Cherish that heirloom!

  11. #11
    Boolit Master


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    Hook that is one very fine rifle. I'm like you in that if I had seen it, picked it up and ran my hand over the stock, and felt the velvety action, I'd owned it too.
    The scope and mount are especially nice. I also shot a 7 even point buck here on our opening day about 7:30 am. I was so glad because it was pretty cold (13°) and I knew I couldn't last too much longer without some warmth. Your deer looks big also. Mine weighed in on the game scale at 159#, and made good meat. I am quite sure your 6.5 will make meat with a good flat nose (FN) boolit. The recent gun rags have the 6.5 Creedmore (spelling?) doing it all these days and the shooting public is buying them up as fast as they can. I think your rifle is capable of anything the "new" 6.5 can do in the game fields.
    Mark 5:34 And He said to her (Jesus speaking), "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace and be healed of your affliction."

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Wish I could answer your question, but, alas, I haven't any experience with the M--S in 6.5. I do want to toss out there a tid-bit of general info, though. After shooting the jacketed stuff, it would benefit you to clean the barrel of all copper. I use some ammonia solutions to wash the stuff out. Other ways available, but ammonia works great. Copper in the barrel will not be a good thing for the use of cast boolits. Best of luck with that lovely little rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hook View Post
    One option is always to use the H4895 60% reduced load trick, then work up. That and checking with Accurate about a 5744 formula are options. But I have found really good results using 4227, 2400, red dot, etc., and wondered if anyone had any ideas.

    Here are the bullets. A friend ordered them from Gardner and sent me a 100 or so to play with. He said it would be awhile before he could work with them and he wanted me to play with them. I am glad to oblige him!

    I'd be real interested in finding out what mold those came from. If they are commercially cast, they are likely harder than you'd want for hunting, but if a guy could find that mold and cast them with soft points, I'd deer hunt with a small bore 6.5 using a bullet like that.

  14. #14
    Boolit Man
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    Thanks, smoky....I feel extremely lucky to have stumbled across it. I've leaned more toward Mausers and lever actions over the past couple of decades but this one just jumped out at me.

    It performed perfectly on the buck, which was smaller than yours at about 145 lbs if I remember correctly. It actually was a very satisfying hunt. The buck was chasing a doe around in a really thick bottom. I could not get a good luck at his rack (our lease has a 6 pt min for bucks) or an open shot at either's vitals. They bedded down at 160-170 yards. There was no way I could slip through the briars to close the distance, so I just had to ease down and get comfortable. THREE HOURS later, he stood up and started feeding directly toward me. Finally, at 150 yds, I was sure he had at least 7 pts and he gave me a clear shot. If he had gone in any other direction, I'd never have gotten the shot. The doe actually stayed bedded as I bulldozed through the briars until I was within about 20 yds of her. Surprised the heck out of me when she took off.

    725, I actually took the rifle out this morning to finish shooting up those Norma factory loads. There were 6 left and the two 3 shot groups measured 1.95" and 1.6" and were right at 2" high where I zeroed them before deer season. After finishing them up, I moved the scope to the small mark I'd put on the turret where the 160 gr RN reloads were zeroed at 3" high. The first reload went 3" left and 4" high. That spooked me until shots 2 and 3 went dead on at 3" high and the holes were almost touching. I guess the old innards of the scope just needed to be shaken into alignment by the first shot after adjustment.

    After all that shooting, I cleaned the bore until it shone like a new silver dollar. I swear that it looks new to me. I wish I had a buddy with a bore scope that could check it closely. I seriously wonder if it has been fired much at all!

    Then, as a starting point, I loaded 3 cast bullet rounds with 12/2400 and 3 rounds with 20/H4895. The 2400 loads ran a little over 1350 fps and the 4895 were a little under 1450 fps. I'm not sure where I'll end up velocity wise with these cast bullets, but thought these 2 loads were a good start. Pretty sure I can kick the 4895 loads much higher, but don't know where the 2400 may start giving pressure problems. That where I was hoping to get some input or experience stories from y'all.

    Rich, these bullets came from Gardners Cache (http://gardnerscache.com/6_5mm_170_fp_g_c.html). I have bought bullets from him before and thought highly of them. I recommended him to my friend who ordered a box and gifted me with about 100. The friend wasn't too impressed with their looks. I don't know the mold Mr Gardner uses, but the alloy is commercial 92/6/2. After I get to a velocity I like, I'll take it to my 100 yd range and see how good they shoot and how close to the jacketed 160 gr zero they fall!

    Wish me luck!

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Have a book in my collection "The Wilderness of Dinali" by Charles Sheldon in which he details his spending an entire year living in the Denali wilderness. He was collecting specimens for a museum and describes shooting the various game animals the region. In the book the only description of the rifle is that it is a bolt action and with it he took moose, sheep and grizzlies. Years later I found a reference to the book that said the rifle was the the 6.5X54MS. Funny thing is he had no hesitation about tackling bears, and killing them cleanly with what many in this day of magnumitis think of as only a deer/antelope cartridge.

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    Looks like NOE makes a similar design mold to that one; http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...duia2pobt7di47

  17. #17
    Boolit Man
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    Not familiar with that book, but have read about the extensive use of 1903s in Africa and India. It's reputation for penetration caused many European hunters to take them along as a 'light' rifle. WDM Bell used it for elephant for awhile and others had no qualms about using it for large/dangerous game. Some of them used only FMJ ammo to insure deep penetration. This is with a load that has roughly the same energy as a 30-30.....and not as much frontal area. They must have been a lot surer of their aim than I am!

    I'm guessing that the NOE mold could be the culprit although the meplat looks smaller on the drawing. I my measure one of my meplats to see if it matches the dimension.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich/WIS View Post
    Have a book in my collection "The Wilderness of Dinali" by Charles Sheldon in which he details his spending an entire year living in the Denali wilderness. He was collecting specimens for a museum and describes shooting the various game animals the region. In the book the only description of the rifle is that it is a bolt action and with it he took moose, sheep and grizzlies. Years later I found a reference to the book that said the rifle was the the 6.5X54MS. Funny thing is he had no hesitation about tackling bears, and killing them cleanly with what many in this day of magnumitis think of as only a deer/antelope cartridge.
    Actually his rifle was a Dutch Mannlicher, built by one of the English gun makers and chambered in 256 Mannlicher, otherwise known as the 6.5x53 Rimmed. It is the rimmed counterpart to the 6.5x54 MS and load data is interchangeable. I have one very similar to Sheldon’s built by WR Pape. There are a few pictures of Sheldon with his rifle. It is definitely a Dutch Mannlicher and not the Mannlicher Schoenauer.
    Only left handed guns are interesting!

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    First shot lube problem. Boil off the craypola stuff and use a good lube.
    Whatever!

  20. #20
    Boolit Man
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    Might have a point there, popper. Obviously, I need to do some homework or just stick to jacketed loads.

    I have been working toward a heavy (160 gr) cast load at a high enough velocity to have a similar POI as my jacketed loads. My 80 year old Hensoldt scope is not something I want to routinely change settings on. I'm concerned about it's integrity enough as it is.

    That being said, I tested 2 loads this morning that clocked at 1800 fps. Figuring that might be fast enough, I loaded a few of each and went across the creek to my 100 yd range. With the scope set for my 160 gr JRN loads, I shot at a 3'X3' target and could not get a hit. I finally moved up to 25 yds and got a hit about 12" high and right. The next shot was near dead center, but the bullet hit the paper sideways! A closer look at the first hole showed it to be slightly oval as well. I think I can safely say that my rifle does not like this bullet.

    I came back to the shop and cleaned the bore, expecting to be mining lead by the pound. Strangely enough, I got only a few tiny spots on the patches, less than practically any other rifle/cast combination I have ever shot. I guess I need to drop back and reassess the rifle/bullet relationship.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check