Winchester 350 Legend

[SvenLindquist]

Hey guys can we get over the incorrect info about a less than .357" bullet diameter ?

Here is the official drawing.



And here is yet another link to the CORRECT info on the cartridge and NO you cannot make it out of 223s unless you are into unplanned excitement.

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019...pecifications/

The CORRECT information is so easy to find "even a caveman can do it."

[richhodg66]

The 450 bushmaster is popular in the "straight wall" states as it is legal, has a decent range, and gets the job done.

I may be mistaken, but I am willing to bet that in reality it is a "less than optimum" choice for most hunting chores in states where bottle necks are allowed.

The 350L should meet the needs of "straight wall" hunters just as well as the 450. It will do it with a lot less recoil. In the straight wall states, having a choice of either 45 cal or 35 cal is a good thing. If you understand the real pros and cons between the two rounds and still want "bigger", then go with the 450. If you want to go the other direction, the 350L (or 357AR) may make you happier.

If you are not in the straight wall states, most buyers will have to "just want" a 35 or a 45 to pick either. Some people just like one vs. the other. Now they have a choice.

For cast boolit hunters, either 35 or 45 are probably pretty darn good choices when compared to anything smaller.

Fortunately, we don't have crazy laws about what's legal to hunt with here. All I hunt deer with is cast for the past ten years or so and it doesn't take a .35 or bigger to do it cleanly, 7mm and up have worked just fine for me.

I predict, despite the hype, will be a dead orphan in a few years.

[SvenLindquist]

It may just kill off the 300 B/O. I can see a subsonic 350gr VLD coming soon.


It’s the “fastest straight-walled hunting cartridge.” Here’s the velocities they provided:

145 grn FMJ – 2,350 fps
150 grn Deer Season XP – 2,325 fps
265 grn Super Suppressed – 1,060 fps
160 grn Power Max Bonded – 2,225 fps
180 grn Power-Point – 2,100 fps

These are @ AR pressure limits. Imagine it in a strong bolt or Ruger No. 1 ????

35 Remington: a 200 grain JSP at a MV of 2,080 fps and a ME of 1,921 ft. lbs. Hmmmmmm ?

[bikerbeans]

Hey guys can we get over the incorrect info about a less than .357" bullet diameter ?

Here is the official drawing.



And here is yet another link to the CORRECT info on the cartridge and NO you cannot make it out of 223s unless you are into unplanned excitement.

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019...pecifications/

The CORRECT information is so easy to find "even a caveman can do it."

That drawing is for the cartridge, the chamber drawing says the groove is 0.355".

BB

[bikerbeans]

350-Legend-Public-Introduction (1).pdf

[P Flados]

The SAAMI specs does include a 0.357" bullet and a 0.355" bore at first glance.

Then you need to look at tolerances.

Any bullet from 0.354" to 0.357" is "in spec" any bore between 0.355" and 0.357" is "in spec".

If Winchester wants to sell ammo that is what they call 0.357" to make it legal in Ohio, they can. If they sell ammo that is actually 0.357", I am sure it will work fine. However, given the spec, I am not convinced that every round they sell to Ohio customers will actually be a full 0.35700000".

I am not sure how Ohio enforcement folks will deal with this mess.

Their law was "stupid" and is the a big part of the problem here. It would have been so much better if it had simply been "35 caliber". Even for a 357 lever gun, remember that any bullet manufacturer can make bullets called 0.357" that can be just a tad under the nominal value. So are the enforcement guys supposed to carry a bullet puller and a micrometer? And what are they to do if they get 0.3568".

My bet is that the enforcement guys will take the easy out and go by the nominal bullet size for the ammo. The word nominal is really closer to "what the maker claims" than anything else. Since Winchester is claiming 0.357" they will let it slide.

However, there is always the chance that some anti hunting goofball or similar (if they are smart enough) will jump in and push the issue. If so, then Winchester can simply sell "certified Ohio legal" ammo that is at least 0.357". If they do this, then they will probably be "just over" spec on almost all of this "Ohio certified" ammo (they must have production tolerances).

Again, Winchester messed up with the SAAMI spec given the goofy Ohio law. The spec should have allowed 0.358" bullets so that they could have set their production tolerance range for hunting ammo at 0.357" to 0.358".

And given the need to meet the Ohio law, they should have been smart enough to have a plan (fat chance for Winchester). If smart, they could have been ready with a statement that clarifies that the spec allows the use of 0.355" bullets and barrels, but they plan to make barrels and ammo at 0.357" to ensure easy compliance with the laws of one of the target states for the round.

[SvenLindquist]

This paranoia is so amusing. EVERY review of the new cartridge, done by anyone who has actually had the ammo in hand, says .357".

Do you REALLY think game wardens are gonna carry mics to measure your ammo ?

Let us know when the first person using this cartridge is arrested.

My Grandpappy used to call this: "picking the flypoop out of the pepper".

Remember what Lincoln said about keeping silent ?

[jmort]

It may just kill off the 300 B/O. I can see a subsonic 350gr VLD coming soon.


It’s the “fastest straight-walled hunting cartridge.” Here’s the velocities they provided:

145 grn FMJ – 2,350 fps
150 grn Deer Season XP – 2,325 fps
265 grn Super Suppressed – 1,060 fps
160 grn Power Max Bonded – 2,225 fps
180 grn Power-Point – 2,100 fps

These are @ AR pressure limits. Imagine it in a strong bolt or Ruger No. 1 ????

35 Remington: a 200 grain JSP at a MV of 2,080 fps and a ME of 1,921 ft. lbs. Hmmmmmm ?

You said the .243 Winchester was going away, now you say the ACC 300 Blackout is going to be killed off. I say you are wrong on both counts in my opinion. I will hold my breath for the Ruger #1 in 350 Legend.

[SvenLindquist]

Yes I did, BUT I did not say when. Ammo is still available for many cartridges no longer chambered. (5mm RF, 300 Savage etc.) If you have one you can still shoot it.

If you are buying a new rifle, the 6mm CM is clearly a better choice than a 243. For hunting, the 350 L is far better than the 300 B/O. The 300 B/O is still a fine cartridge for suppressed use, BUT a 350L with a 300 gr VLD will be better.

FYI I own a 244 Rem, 3 6.5x55s, 3 300 H&Hs, a 7x61, a 7x57, a 300 Savage, a 41 Swiss, a 7.5x55 and even a 400 Whelen. Love em' all, BUT were I shopping for a NEW rifle for hunting, none of these chamberings would be on the list.

A Ruger No. 3 in 350L would be a sweet rig. Wonder if JES could take my 223 No 3 and make me one ?

[rking22]

If I were doing that #3 it would 357 max or rimless max, or just maybe invest in a reamer for a 35 223 with a cast bullet throat. Interesting thought right there.

[P Flados]

This paranoia is so amusing. EVERY review of the new cartridge, done by anyone who has actually had the ammo in hand, says .357".

At one point, I was thinking that the ammo would be 0.357" and the gun would be 0.355".

I really do not have a problem with a manufacturer choosing to make ammo a few mils above bore. However, any maker that chooses to do this really ought to have a good story that is readily available at the time the round hits the street. In this case, a reasonable basis could have been along the lines of "The 0.355" bore will work fine with even with all bullets available to reloaders and we wanted to make sure the factory ammo would be safe in a gun made from a 9mm blank or a 9mm AR barrel".

The 0.355" bore and 0.357" ammo may still turn out to be the case. However, on another forum I saw a post that someone did measure the exposed portion of some Winchester ammo and got 0.355".

And regardless of what they were thinking and/or doing before the gun was made public, they do have have something of a mess with Ohio. Some folks will be reluctant unless the issue is adequately explained and/or changes made. A wrong perception can hurt or kill a good round in short order. Just ask anyone that bought a 357 maximum when Ruger was still selling them.

[SvenLindquist]

Tempest in a teapot (as is all too common on the web). When you find anyone in OH agonizing over this non-event be sure to post it here.

Just for grins, I spent 30 minutes trolling the straight wall states hunting forums. Guess what ? The only panic to be found is HERE. Folks in those states are already ordering them. I'm sure they're all gonna be arrested and locked up for decades.

From the OH regs:

"Straight-walled cartridge rifles in the following calibers: All straight-walled cartridge calibers from a minimum of .357 to a maximum of .50. Shotguns and straight-walled cartridge rifles can be loaded with no more than three shells in the chamber and magazine combined."

From American Hunter: "The bullet diameter is listed as .357″, and the rimless design will require the cartridge to headspace off the case mouth."

The only bigger waste of time than this assumption that somehow OH will not accept it IS ----- playing golf.

I await one of the Paniced to actually buy the ammo and put a mic on it.

[bikerbeans]

Just for grins, I spent 30 minutes trolling the straight wall states hunting forums.

Don't be modest, i am sure you have spent a lot more time than 30 minutes Trolling the web.

BB

[GARD72977]

The SAAMI specs does include a 0.357" bullet and a 0.355" bore at first glance.

Then you need to look at tolerances.

Any bullet from 0.354" to 0.357" is "in spec" any bore between 0.355" and 0.357" is "in spec".

If Winchester wants to sell ammo that is what they call 0.357" to make it legal in Ohio, they can. If they sell ammo that is actually 0.357", I am sure it will work fine. However, given the spec, I am not convinced that every round they sell to Ohio customers will actually be a full 0.35700000".

I am not sure how Ohio enforcement folks will deal with this mess.

Their law was "stupid" and is the a big part of the problem here. It would have been so much better if it had simply been "35 caliber". Even for a 357 lever gun, remember that any bullet manufacturer can make bullets called 0.357" that can be just a tad under the nominal value. So are the enforcement guys supposed to carry a bullet puller and a micrometer? And what are they to do if they get 0.3568".

My bet is that the enforcement guys will take the easy out and go by the nominal bullet size for the ammo. The word nominal is really closer to "what the maker claims" than anything else. Since Winchester is claiming 0.357" they will let it slide.

However, there is always the chance that some anti hunting goofball or similar (if they are smart enough) will jump in and push the issue. If so, then Winchester can simply sell "certified Ohio legal" ammo that is at least 0.357". If they do this, then they will probably be "just over" spec on almost all of this "Ohio certified" ammo (they must have production tolerances).

Again, Winchester messed up with the SAAMI spec given the goofy Ohio law. The spec should have allowed 0.358" bullets so that they could have set their production tolerance range for hunting ammo at 0.357" to 0.358".

And given the need to meet the Ohio law, they should have been smart enough to have a plan (fat chance for Winchester). If smart, they could have been ready with a statement that clarifies that the spec allows the use of 0.355" bullets and barrels, but they plan to make barrels and ammo at 0.357" to ensure easy compliance with the laws of one of the target states for the round.

I have hand loaded a few of these. The bullets we're .355

[Tonto]

At first this seemed exciting, an interesting round that us foks who like brass forming can enjoy....not the best ballistically but a fun do it yourself project. Seems this one went out of the way to screw folks out of that opportunity...."lots of $9.99 a boxfactory ammo..." I'm not holding my breath and will follow up on a wildcat that uses 358 bullets and 223 brass.

[Texas by God]

The .351WSL and the 9mm WinMag had a baby and......

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[P Flados]

and will follow up on a wildcat that uses 358 bullets and 223 brass.

My 357AR is a proven round. AR-15 barrels have been made in batches, bolt action barrels can be made as one off items.

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/?forum=645266

It is probably about as reloading friendly as it gets for sending 0.358" bullets or boolits down range at 357 Maximum power level using 223 brass.

An even easier conversion choice is the "Mini-Mole" that is a spin off of the 357AR effort. The entire shoulder is cut off of a 223 for a 1.4" case. Think of it as a rimless 360 Dan Wesson. A big plus for this one in an AR is that standard 223 Pmags can be used. The bullet ogive stays just behind the side ribs.

https://mdws.forumchitchat.com/post/...0174?&trail=25

When Moleman came up with the 357AR round, converting cases was the only choice.

[longbow]

I've been saying for some time that a .357 Max. rimless would be a nice round in a bolt gun or even single shot. I like bigger bore than .30 with cast boolits and with the availability of military 5.56 brass it seems like a no brainer for a relatively inexpensive wildcat that has decent poop but fairly easy on powder, lead and shoulder. Cheap or free brass and being able to cast .357" boolits from 125 gr. to 250 gr. or so is appealing... to me anyway.

Yes, I know in a single shot a rimmed .357 Max. works fine but brass is not readily available. I do have to wonder if a guy could use blown out and formed 5.56 brass in a .357 Max. chamber? Might take an extractor mod but as long as the brass is the right length to headspace on the case mouth why wouldn't it work?

Easier to feed rimless in a bolt gun though.

For those that have worked with fireforming is 0.012" too much to fireform 5.56 brass in a 350 Legend chamber? If not then I'd go that route. If so then I'd be inclined just to go with .357 Max. rimless.

I look at my .303 British brass after firing and it certainly swells up... I haven't mic'd full length sized or new then fireformed but now that I've said that I will! I'm curious.

Like Tonto, if brass can't or can't be easily formed from 5.56 brass then I'd be waiting to see just how popular this gets before buying one or chambering a barrel for it.

Longbow

[SvenLindquist]

Don't be modest, i am sure you have spent a lot more time than 30 minutes Trolling the web.

BB

Before you start typing, you might want to read what I said. Sadly your avatar is not accurate. (chuckle)

[SvenLindquist]

"I have hand loaded a few of these. The bullets we're .355". (were ?)

I'd love to know where you sourced those Winchester J bullets since they are not available for sale.